NHS challenged by women forced to share changing room with transwoman

On a side note, we often say how hard it can be to recognise dangerous men because they don't come with a warning label. I'm beginning to think that some of them do 😂

In what world is it 'reasonable' for men to demand ad lib access to women in vulnerable situations? In what world is it reasonable for men to demand opportunities set aside for women - set aside because men already have access to these opportunities by virtue of being men.

In what world is it 'reasonable' for these demands to be framed as 'rights'?

I thank OP and everyone else who posts news stories about the demolition of women’s rights. And thank you Mumsnet, which is one of the few places we can share and discuss this information. (I even have to thank the Daily Mail — a sentence I never thought I would write!)

Every case that gets into the news shines a bit more light on what’s trying to hide under the ‘be kind’ stone.

Isn’t it weird when anyone brings up separating anything by sex it’s all you are bigot or some accusation of similarities to racial segregation but when it’s separate by self identified gender it’s all inclusion and being kind. Both include some form of separation by category.

Whether this nurse is really trans, is gay or straight, a good guy or deprived fetishist isn't the key issue and this info, whilst key to the upset the female nurses experience, are used by TRAs to obfuscate.

The issue is whether he should be able to change in single sex provision for females (be he a respectful and lovely person or not). The likes of LOJ will be queuing up to highlight another DM article that paints a transwomen as a predator. The will froth and shout about this.

It wouldn't matter if the t

Upthread:

www.legalfeminist.org.uk/2022/08/07/false-equivalence-a-guest-blog-by-barrister-anya-palmer/

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5082737-nhs-challenged-by-women-forced-to-share-changing-room-with-transwoman?reply=135541231

A Gay man {XY} I know said he worked with a woman {XX} who self I'D'd as a ''Man'' But dressed as a female...and the 'pronouns' were 'he/him'......but this woman wanted to actually be a Gay Man!....

He {the XY friend} said it was baffling, and no way could she possibly be a ''Gay Man'' as she was a woman.

So it;s not just women {XX} who find the whole thing bonkers.

What? So they should think themselves lucky then? And it’s the men we should feel for? Ffs

God! This shit still raises my blood pressure.

Enough now! Women have had enough!

Men know your place. And I'll give you a clue it isn't in any place that is women only.

Predators always find a way to exploit progressive movements; PIE's infiltration of Liberty and the Labour party is a prime example of predators using a progressive ideal; the lowering of the age of consent for homosexuals in line with that for heterosexuals, to try to get policy changed to allow them to exploit children. The Savilles of this world using well meaning charities as cover for their activities is another prime example.

It's a case of what's accepted as evidence in court versus common sense. Plus, how do you prove he's really a man when that's no longer recorded anywhere and doesn't have a legal definition? He's just a bundle of attributes, that you have to prove from first principles shouldn't be in the women's changing room. I say bring it on!

I’m sure there was an ET that found in favour of a trans woman using a NHS female changing room because they used the wrong comparator (a female, rather than a male).

Will be good to see where this one goes. It’s clearly
utter madness.

I don’t think they were ever ‘reasonable’.

Some might even consider that was the actual aim in the first place.

It's an abuser's dream.

Why are people so unwilling to see that reasonable trans rights are effortlessly manipulated and abused by sexual predators? I can't help wondering if there is a degree of glee in all this - finally a legitimate loophole for telling women to know their place and be subservient to the sexual whims of any man at any time.

At least they have a changing room. During Covid we were having g to chafe in a store cupboard. Which our male member of staff was very uncomfortable with.

How could this man's 'birth sex' ever be confidential, @theilltemperedclavecinist, when he's standing in front of his female colleagues in his boxers with holes in them (according to the article and I think we know what's implied by that 🍆) and he's talking about getting his partner pregnant?

No hiding place there.

The is rage inducing.

He should use the office of the HR person to change in. After all, that person doesn’t see an issue with his behaviour, and it’s their chance to be inclusive, etc…

Yes they did 'throw' it and here we predictably are.

The claimant in the Sheffield case was the one who brought up the subject of his underwear - he said it was so hot he'd taken them off and did a 'wringing out' mime. His colleagues also reported him naked from the waist down in the changing room. This is why his manager asked about underwear.

The Equal Treatment Bench Book is v relevant - Anya Palmer's article is v clear.

Thread about the case at the time: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4593138-transwoman-wins-employment-discrimination-case-against-nhs-for-being-treated-differently-from-women-in-changing-room?page=1

Is it worth pointing out that the Sheffield case related to catering staff? The catering manager (although very important in with regard to patients) is likely a comparatively junior member of staff in the hospital hierarchy.

Asking about underwear was clumsy - and not necessarily something that someone with more experience would have done, but it's such a shame the handling of this allowed a man with an agenda to win a legal case.

I hope the Nurses win and that the wider NHS learn lessons.

Wattnow · Today 09:02

The HR approach must be informed by this dodgy tribunal verdict:

I wondered initially if it were the same hospital, but it seems not. As I read it, the trust threw the fight, so to speak, when they could and should have challenged it.

😶

The previous case involved a Sheffield hospital and the new case is against an NHS trust in the North East.

The facts of the two cases are similar but the causes of action are different.

The TW was bullied and therefore discriminated against because disadvantaged (vis-a-vis changing facilities) compared to employees of the opposite legal sex and non-trans employees of the same legal sex.

In the new case, the claimants are discriminated against because disadvantaged (vis-a-vis changing facilities) compared to employees of the opposite legal sex. Namely, the male nurses, who don't have to put up with a woman in their changing room, and wouldn't be frightened by it if they did (leaving the religious angle out for the moment). Women are more disadvantaged by mixed changing rooms than men, in other words.

If they win, the TW still needs a changing space in order not to be discriminated against. A third space, or we re-educate everyone to accept TW in the men's space.

It sounds as if this TW doesn't have a GRC. If they did, their legal sex would be female, their birth sex would be confidential, and I wonder what evidence the court would require in order to demonstrate that their presence is or could be distressing to females. (It doesn't have to be sex-related per se - the comparison we are making is between the frightened and disgusted women in one room and the carefree men in the other.)

That would bring in some very sensitive subjects like genital surgery, passing privilege, and whether a woman is justified in rejecting the presence of somebody as male based only on body type (if she can't see his dna, gonads, or genitals). The body type thing feeds into the whole pædiatric treatment row so is also sensitive.

I wish there could be a case with a GRC just so we can see these topics thrashed out.

Well, Mridul Wadhwa is still in his job...