Please help - receipts needed for important debate

YY, I suggest doing what @BreatheAndFocus suggests.

They’re asking you to prove that most people believe something bloody obvious that’s a known fact. Tell them that. Tell them you don’t believe in gravity and actually most people don’t believe in gravity either. Then, when they tell you that most people do believe in gravity, say that you can’t accept that unless they find a poll showing that’s so.

When they get grumpy, point out to them that what they’re asking is exactly the same flavour of stupid. Also point out to them that you think they’re conflating sex and gender which is dreadfully transphobic.

Yes, precisely this.

This. It doesn’t matter what you say OP you could produce a poll with 100% of ppl saying sex is immutable and they’d immediately say “ah but this poll only surveyed 10,000 ppl, you need a bigger sample size”. They’ll always move the goalposts

it’s not an argument you can win because they don’t want evidence, they want submission

This report is two years old but you might find some of it interesting: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.moreincommon.org.uk%2Fmedia%2Fgiljcopo%2Fbritons-and-gender-identity-navigating-common-ground-and-division-june-2022.pdf&psig=AOvVaw1efbp5nO9drEH9gywa-CXS&ust=1716047055878000&source=images&cd=vfe&opi=89978449&ved=0CAgQr5oMahcKEwiIxP7Kg5WGAxUAAAAAHQAAAAAQBA

I'm afraid it sounds like a deliberately disingenuous and bad faith argument, OP and one you're unlikely to win unless you find the exact wording that a majority of people "believe sex is immutable."

Why would people have any problem with "trans women" in women's sports if they believed it was possible for males to change their sex?

old thread
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3490428-seeking-stats-what-proportion-believe-that-TWAW

yougov survey (prob a more recent one somewhere)
https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/43194-where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights-1?redirect_from=%2Ftopics%2Fsociety%2Farticles-reports%2F2022%2F07%2F20%2Fwhere-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

What are you trying to do?

Review policy? Stop an insistence on pronouns? Something else?

Does it matter?

That's the law. Sex is real otherwise how would any babies be born?

The focus shouldn't be on persuading people that other people believe something but on keeping the company out of court.

Can they prove (with poll data) that most people think the sky is blue, that water is wet? People don’t run polls like that, because sex being immutable is not something on which it is possible to have an opinion, it is a fact.

TRAs are always saying that sex and gender are different (totally agree) but then as soon as someone says you can’t change sex, they lose their shit.

Or point out that pretty much all of the public messaging says gender not sex: Can You Legally Change Your Gender in the UK (ukdeedpolloffice.org)

I don't think that will help much as they will just move the goalposts - sometimes sex and gender are the same, sometimes they are different but gender (identity) is the important bit.

The polls that YOUGOV have run every two years are a useful barometer on the growing opposition of the public to gender nonsense. The last one was 2022 so I hope we are about to get another.

https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/43194-where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights-1

Jeez there is no hope for these people.

Jazz Jennings on X: "If we are speaking about biology, then sure, you can say that I'll always have XY chromosomes and never be a female. However, if we are discussing gender, then we are talking about identity & expression, & I am here declaring that I undeniably identify as a woman!!! Gender > Sex" / X

And this article contradicts itself constantly but this quote in particular "It should be noted that trans people do not generally believe sex is not real; indeed, discomfort with the sex of our bodies is a frequent challenge for trans people. ": Opinion | Sex Does Not Mean Gender. Equating Them Erases Trans Lives. - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

I am not sure how much good it will do you since the rules can change within a sentance. But if they are demanding you prove most people don't think you can change sex maybe pointing out that "Akshully most trans people don't either - Terfs pretend they do as part of their cunning word play" might help.

I think majority of biologists believe so. Maybe look into stuff about animals, but then I suppose the goal posts will be moved and then they'll talk about how people feel. Can you ask them if race and age is the same? And if not why when it has the same biological links as gender

That might help if they are demanding proof of what people believe rather than what are the biological facts.

Alternatively could you bounce back to them some of the TRA arguments that "no-one is saying sex isn't real/binary/immutable. That's a lie spread by TERFs" blah blah blah. I definitely remember that being argued and feeling whiplash - I will see if I can get hold of any reference that's useful to you. Maybe someone else can remember?

The "quick rebuttal" you describe suggests to me that any evidence you provide will be dispatched. In which case I would get together the "brave souls" and stand your ground with logic.

People are born one or other sex. These people (all of us) need facilities for our sex. No-one changes sex - cosmetic changes can be made through medication or intervention. In that case maybe an organisation makes accommodation to be sensitive. But no-one has to lie about that. The words "be kind" are commonly now used to mean "be quiet". This is not kind.

The onus is not on you brave souls to argue against a fiction. It is on the narrators of that fiction to find accommodation with you. 5 years ago this would have seemed ludicrous.

Population growth.

Do any of these people have children? Did their majority belief that sex is mutable allow two ejaculators to conceive a child?

If the majority believe sex is mutable then the population would be diminishing.

The Sex Matters briefing is here:

This whole idea that someone thinking and writing/saying that sex exists and is relevant for policy and law can be "harmful" to someone else has been thoroughly debunked by the Jo Phoenix case. The judgment specifically addressed this issue.

That document is in the public domain, but Sex Matters have just produced a resource on it - it's aimed at universities, but is broadly applicable in any workplace.