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Original poster

Government tells schools to teach “biological sex” and contest gender “ideology”: do you support this? YouGov Daily survey

38 replies

IwantToRetire · 16/05/2024 00:19

Should school children be taught that it is possible to change gender?

  • 53% agree wrong being taught radical or baseless theories about sex and gender
  • 49% agree teach 2 sexes and gender identity a contested topic
  • 53% agree should not be taught possible to change gender
  • 41% agree should not be taught gender identity different to biological sex

But 49% say Government proposal politically motivated!

https://www.yougov.chat/

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6
Datun · 17/05/2024 09:21

IwantToRetire · 17/05/2024 01:13

Keegan’s case unravelled rather dramatically on the airwaves this morning in a rather mortifying exchange:

GK: I’ve always known that trans women aren’t women.

EB: But you wrote that trans women are women. I’ve got it in front of me when you wrote it.

GK: I’ll go into the details because I did think about it. Somebody who has changed their gender, who has changed from a man to a woman, has gone through the full reassignment, is who I had in my head at that time. So we were not all aware of the various campaigns and all the various groups. And of course, somebody that was a man, that has transitioned, that has fully transitioned is known as a woman.

EB: So you do still think that? So you do still think that a man that has transitioned — a trans woman — is a woman? You’ve just said that.

GK: There’s a huge difference between self-identification, people who want to identify but still have a male body, biologically are male, and then there are a very, very small number of people — but I think we have to be really sensitive about these people and not lose them in this debate — who do have and have had gender reassignment and reassignment surgery and they have gone to a great deal of a lot of pain…

EB: Are they women?

GK: Well, this is what we should say. I personally believe if you’ve gone to that level… If you’ve got the gender recognition, you’ve got the reassignment, then you are legally and medically allowed to say you’re a woman.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/listen-keegan-in-excruciating-muddle-over-woman-definition/

It's the Tru Trans argument. And is held by a significant number of people.

It does eventually fall apart, but it takes time. And some people, women included, simply cannot detach themselves from the idea that women, both their physical presence and the very concept of them, should be therapy for some men.

jellyfrizz · 17/05/2024 08:49

IwantToRetire · 16/05/2024 00:19

Should school children be taught that it is possible to change gender?

  • 53% agree wrong being taught radical or baseless theories about sex and gender
  • 49% agree teach 2 sexes and gender identity a contested topic
  • 53% agree should not be taught possible to change gender
  • 41% agree should not be taught gender identity different to biological sex

But 49% say Government proposal politically motivated!

https://www.yougov.chat/

53% agree should not be taught possible to change gender

Does anyone think you can change gender though?

You either believe gender is social stereotypes and something imposed on people rather than something you can be.
Or you believe people are born with a gender identity that may or may not 'match' your biological sex and even if that gender changes it is still a single gender e.g. genderfluid

Do you think people answering that are taking gender to mean biological sex? It weird because they also mention biological sex.

Original poster
IwantToRetire · 17/05/2024 01:13

Keegan’s case unravelled rather dramatically on the airwaves this morning in a rather mortifying exchange:

GK: I’ve always known that trans women aren’t women.

EB: But you wrote that trans women are women. I’ve got it in front of me when you wrote it.

GK: I’ll go into the details because I did think about it. Somebody who has changed their gender, who has changed from a man to a woman, has gone through the full reassignment, is who I had in my head at that time. So we were not all aware of the various campaigns and all the various groups. And of course, somebody that was a man, that has transitioned, that has fully transitioned is known as a woman.

EB: So you do still think that? So you do still think that a man that has transitioned — a trans woman — is a woman? You’ve just said that.

GK: There’s a huge difference between self-identification, people who want to identify but still have a male body, biologically are male, and then there are a very, very small number of people — but I think we have to be really sensitive about these people and not lose them in this debate — who do have and have had gender reassignment and reassignment surgery and they have gone to a great deal of a lot of pain…

EB: Are they women?

GK: Well, this is what we should say. I personally believe if you’ve gone to that level… If you’ve got the gender recognition, you’ve got the reassignment, then you are legally and medically allowed to say you’re a woman.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/listen-keegan-in-excruciating-muddle-over-woman-definition/

Listen: Keegan in excruciating muddle over 'woman' definition

Who’s been educating the Education Secretary? If ‘what is a woman?’ was an exam question, Mr S is certain Gillian Keegan would’ve flunked the test — given her abysmal performance on the BBC’s Today programme this morning… The Education Secretary was on...

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/listen-keegan-in-excruciating-muddle-over-woman-definition

OP posts:
Original poster
IwantToRetire · 16/05/2024 19:52

Just heard C4 news virtually sniggering throughout their report on this, and then summed it up by saying it wasn't even based on any research.

Which they claim is what the Minister said.

OP posts:
PeppercornMill · 16/05/2024 13:46

If so many people are upset that schools won't be teaching gender identity to children, then the parents can teach their own children about gender identity.

PaleBlueMoonlight · 16/05/2024 08:34

Politically motivated appears to mean that the conservatives are doing it because they think it is a vote winner rather than because they think it is needed, with overtones of if you support this you are aligning with the Tories.

Those I was listening to on the radio who were saying this (who hadn't read it!) were also saying that they already complied with what it said (i.e. the summary they had heard about) and therefore the guidance wasn't needed. To which the answer is surely, "That is great!" and " This guidance is really aimed at those who are not already complying, as well as to support all schools where parents, pupils or outside bodies challenge the school's position".

Haven't heard how the Tories sold it in their statement, so it is possible they shot themselves in the foot.

Datun · 16/05/2024 07:46

What does politically motivated mean? That it's a vote winner? Doesn't that mean most people agree with it?

PaleBlueMoonlight · 16/05/2024 07:28

Calling it political is aimed at casting doubt on its legitimacy without commenting on its contents. It is the equivalent of playing the man and not the ball.

WarriorN · 16/05/2024 06:51

Questions were really bad in that.

One about consent / sexual violence being taught to under 9s

Consent starts very early within friendships children have. Yes or no to games etc.

I'm not going to say a 7 yr old should learn about sexual violence but I am going to say they should know to check other children want to play a game etc

endofthelinefinally · 16/05/2024 06:23

I listened to several discussions on radio/ tv yesterday about this. I was not surprised that practically everyone who spoke implied that there was no problem, just a fuss about nothing and of course schools are not promoting gender ideology.
There seemed to be a deliberate missing of the point, even by journalists who I would have considered reasonably well informed.
That said, I thought the reported government statement was poorly worded.

WarriorN · 16/05/2024 06:09

It's his the bbc are doing "balance" on this I think. "Politically motivated."

Fuck off it's science and safeguarding

This was a thread about the early leaks

"Teachers to tell children Gender Ideology is a contested belief" www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/5075106-teachers-to-tell-children-gender-ideology-is-a-contested-belief

NumberTheory · 16/05/2024 00:46

But 49% say Government proposal politically motivated!

I don’t think that’s surprising. Just because you agree with something doesn’t mean you trust the motivations of politicians to be anything other than furthering their own interests. The Tory’s have been in power for a decade and now, just before an election, they decide to stop something that they allowed to happen in the first place.

But also, to a large extent, within a democracy that’s what politicians are supposed to do. And hopefully what Labour will do too, as they seem to be. Changing direction because the majority of people don’t support the way you were going is politically motivated, but it’s also what democracy is all about.

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