Thread 3: A corpus-assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet

Transwoman excluding, transman including rad fem. A more accurate reflection of my views than TERF

‘So what you are REALLY saying is’

ODFOD. We say exactly what we mean, Mx Palmer!

@DrTWETMIRF what does TWETMIRF stand for? All the things I can come up with are surreal, revolting or both.

Imagine doing a doctorate basically saying 'those people are meany bums'. That's about as rigorous as Aston require from the sound of things so far.

Very horrid and mean of you to say that, Squeaks.

I really don't think "they're all horrid and mean" should form any part of the basis for an academic exercise, but I have yet to hear anything about EP's thesis that doesn't start from that point.

Eden’s work looks at the nature and development of transphobic language online, using corpus assisted critical discourse analysis to unpick implicitly discriminatory discourse.

It feels like that some at AIFL are determined to view FWR as transphobic. Whether that’s poor comprehension skills, confirmation bias or self-referential over-interpretations of posters comments or a combination of all three, it’s frustrating. Frustrating to see poor scholarship but frustrating when the drive by scolders don’t engage with key arguments but just repeat the same specious or off topic comment over and over again. Never engage on the wider implications of their argument that TWAW. Yet happy to taint, and thus attempt to belittle or undermine, the legitimate concerns for women and girls expressed on FWR.

YouGov today are asking about under which circumstances AI companies should be allowed to scrape data from publishers and artists. Nothing about whether universities should be allowed to though.

Sterling work by Sex Matters as always. Just skimming through the pdf, one extract caught my eye, that I think is worth highlighting. Talking about the Forstater EAT, under the section The Need To Tolerate Opposing Viewpoints 😛:

“Just as the legal recognition of Civil Partnerships does not negate the right of a person to believe that marriage should only apply to heterosexual couples, becoming the acquired gender “for all purposes” within the meaning of GRA does not negate a person’s right to believe, like the Claimant, that as a matter of biology a trans person is still their natal sex. Both beliefs may well be profoundly offensive and even distressing to many others, but they are beliefs that are and must be tolerated in a pluralist society.”

Some of MN's fly-by scolders might well reflect on that

I misread this as fully fledged PhD.

I was going to comment that this must mean that all the details are now in the public domain.

So the news is she's officially been able to start her research?

I would love to ask the uni /Eden how they feel that titled could be defended in the light of this publication by Jo Phoenix/ University of Reading (but can't see a way to comment, story doesn't seem to be on X):

https://sex-matters.org/posts/other-resources/dont-get-caught-out-a-summary-of-gender-critical-belief-discrimination-employment-tribunal-judgments/

With particular reference to section 6.3 "calling people who hold gender critical beliefs TERF or transphobic can be derogatory name calling".

As someone wisely commented on another recent thread, you can be anti an ideology without being anti the people who believe it.

I can't believe she's being encouraged to study such a flawed premise.

It is probably under construction.

It was meant to be a light hearted remark.

In response to " ... We used it at Mumsnet to build MumsGPT, which uncovers and summarises what parents are thinking about – everything from beauty trends to supermarkets to politicians – and we licensed OpenAI’s API (application programming interface) to build it. ... "

So if there is a MumsGPT why not a FWRGPT?!

I don’t hold out much hope for AIFL developing the necessary comprehension skills viz a viz the rather legitimate concerns expressed on FWR. Transparency doesn’t seem that important either,

I'm likewise concerned about the general level of comprehension that is needed for critical thinking. AIFL's stance overlaps with the (to me) astonishing news that the civil servants seem to be oblivious to the bias of the report that they cite uncritically.

Labour used “economically illiterate” analysis paid for by water companies in order to argue against the nationalisation of the sector, the Guardian can reveal.
In an official letter recently sent to anti-sewage groups, civil servants cited a paper by the Social Market Foundation as a reason to avoid nationalisation as part of its review of the sector. The report from 2018 was commissioned by United Utilities, Anglian Water, Severn Trent and South West Water.
…
Sir Dieter Helm, a leading economist, called the analysis “economically illiterate”.
Moody’s rating agency has disputed this figure and estimated that nationalisation could actually cost £14.5bn – a fraction of the analysis amount.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/sep/29/labour-water-industry-analysis-argue-against-nationalisation

I think Eden could have written her PhD in crayon and on cardboard and it would have passed.

Comprehension skills used to be taught in infant school but seems to have increasingly become a lost art. Including amongst those who inhabit the spheres of HE. Alas, Gen AI will further erode that tenuous hold on any ability to comprehend the arguments and points being made by others.

Combining those two points, I don’t hold out much hope for AIFL developing the necessary comprehension skills viz a viz the rather legitimate concerns expressed on FWR. Transparency doesn’t seem that important either, as Eden never felt comfortable with explaining their analysis nor their conclusion drawn from their ‘findings’.

Not just me, then! 😄

Yes, maybe. The problem for me ethically remains that MN talk goes back a couple of decades when posters had no idea AI would become a thing and therefore could not conceptualise this is how the details they posted about their abusive relationships, DC, infertility, bereavements etc could or would be used in this way. People post in fairly vulnerable situations looking for support and effectively, the argument is about who monetises it.

Honestly, same.

Well if Mumsnet is suing here's hoping that adds grist to their mill. Says a lot about how genuine any apology was.

That’s how I read it too Rethinking

Nicci has also been promoted 🤦‍♀️

WomanXX - so, it looks like they're continuing unabated.

I have always thought it was weed. Which was somewhat perplexing…

Is this news? Not sure I’ve seen this posted.

https://nitter.poast.org/AIFL_Aston/status/1837237551830073629#m

Congratulations to AIFL’s Eden Palmer, Lauren Morgan, and Jenna Elliott for passing their Qualifying Reports and becoming fully-fledged PhD researchers. All 3 demonstrated excellent progress over their first year, and we’re excited to see how the projects unfold!

https://nitter.poast.org/AIFL_Aston/status/1837238659625402761#m

Eden’s work looks at the nature and development of transphobic language online, using corpus assisted critical discourse analysis to unpick implicitly discriminatory discourse.

Sep 20, 2024 · 9:13 PM UTC

I quite like the idea of AI collating the collective wisdom of mumsnet to become a one stop shop for women trying to leave abusive men, mothers worried about children being transed at school, and .. !!

" ... We used it at Mumsnet to build MumsGPT, which uncovers and summarises what parents are thinking ... "

Pretty much the deal that Reddit made, I think.

It must potentially be a huge money-maker.