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Thread 3: A corpus-assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet

337 replies

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 01/05/2024 21:33

In which we continue to discuss the Aston scrapists.

Mumsnet Corpus | Mumsnet

Not a TAAT, but a bit of googling as a result of a now deleted thread has led me to this: [[https://fold.aston.ac.uk/handle/123456789/18 https://fold...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/site_stuff/5057903-mumsnet-corpus

OP posts:
Thread gallery
32
TheAutopsyOfMNCorpus · 02/05/2024 08:36

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 08:12

A thing of beauty

Ta verry muchlee.

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 08:21

I see my posts are not even due a Third. I will read the source material properly now 😬

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 08:19

OK ta

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 02/05/2024 08:16

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 08:13

Ah ok sorry, I did try to find it in the corpus corpus, but it's quite large ....

The paper is by Sarah Pedersen.

OP posts:
CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 08:13

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 02/05/2024 08:10

No, that's a different researcher, who did ask permission, and whose work was misrepresented by the PhD student.

It's telling that Eden considered the adoption of suffragette imagery and colours to be non-linguistic expressions of transphobia. It's as if women having the right to vote is held to be transphobic.

Edited

Ah ok sorry, I did try to find it in the corpus corpus, but it's quite large ....

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 08:12

TheAutopsyOfMNCorpus · 01/05/2024 23:47

4 alll de Nick Caves out dare.

A thing of beauty

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 02/05/2024 08:10

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 08:00

Interesting, Maggie.
I think that was shown by their surprise that "Mums"knew so much about the suffragettes. Wasn't that a paper by one of the original scrapers?

And yeah, internalised sexism by women colleagues. I assume what sounds like excellent support for students facing race and class issues helps tease out any internalised racism, classism etc. Time for a staff training module on internalised sexism. Or even - gender stereotyping?

No, that's a different researcher, who did ask permission, and whose work was misrepresented by the PhD student.

It's telling that Eden considered the adoption of suffragette imagery and colours to be non-linguistic expressions of transphobia. It's as if women having the right to vote is held to be transphobic.

OP posts:
CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 08:06

There was a young woman from Birmingham
Who thought all her brains must have worms in em
Then she read a paper
By a sneaky young scraper
And felt all intellectully affirmed again

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 02/05/2024 08:00

MaggieCalvert · 02/05/2024 07:43

Yes, I get that.

Like I said. There are lots of people at Aston who don't think women are people (even when they're standing in front of then, much less when they're posting on the internet)

I'm not defending that or them, though I guess I have tried to defend some of what Aston is & does.

Interesting, Maggie.
I think that was shown by their surprise that "Mums"knew so much about the suffragettes. Wasn't that a paper by one of the original scrapers?

And yeah, internalised sexism by women colleagues. I assume what sounds like excellent support for students facing race and class issues helps tease out any internalised racism, classism etc. Time for a staff training module on internalised sexism. Or even - gender stereotyping?

MaggieCalvert · 02/05/2024 07:43

Yes, I get that.

Like I said. There are lots of people at Aston who don't think women are people (even when they're standing in front of then, much less when they're posting on the internet)

I'm not defending that or them, though I guess I have tried to defend some of what Aston is & does.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 02/05/2024 07:39

MaggieCalvert · 02/05/2024 07:32

I'm a long-standing, quite senior Aston academic (very different discipline though) & I've been following this with genuine embarrassment. I've created this shiny new MN account just to post on this thread, but have been around a long time.

I agree with much of what's been said already, including that this should never have got research ethics clearance (assuming of course that it did...), so I won't repeat that.

I just wanted to add some insider perspective, which I hope might be interesting/useful.

Apologies for the next paragraph sounding a bit like Aston PR. It's context. I will move on to something a bit more critical!

On the whole, Aston is generally very liberal. I'm GC (actively), & have never felt the need to hide my views at work. It's a very diverse community - lots of our students have difficult circumstances, & most academic staff work really hard to support students through issues like racism, financial difficulty & poor mental health. I've worked across HE, but I've now been at Aston a very long time, & nowhere else has been this apolitical. Everyone's just too busy dealing with shit, frankly, & there's a lot of it (some of which I'll come to)

Many courses have a compulsory placement year, and all have a technical/applied focus (even disciplines like History). This is because one of the things Aston likes to sell itself on is "usefulness" (in both teaching and research). I first came across the forensic linguistics work at Aston when I was at another university, & at that time, it was very much in this tradition - developing tools to keep children safe in online spaces, for eg. It strikes me that this particular PhD is an odd fit at Aston, for lots of reasons. However, i do work in a very different area, so maybe there's a whole ton of this type of thing going on & I'm just not aware of it.

Bits of the university are deeply, deeply sexist (HE is in general, IME, but Aston has a special brand of it). I can easily believe that it didn't occur to anyone involved (including female academics) that women posting here are also people. The misogyny at Aston is a whole other thread, but I absolutely think it's been a factor here, in the initial scrape and the uses to which the data has been put. We don't (generally) have issues with gender ideology harming women. We just have good old fashioned women-hating. It's like a little time machine (& has got worse since the VC came in a couple of years ago)

The VC himself is ruthlessly ambitious for himself and the institution. Having seen him in action, my guess would be that he's putting significant effort into protecting the university (I assume he's taken expensive legal advice). At the same time, I'm pretty confident those involved will be having a very hard time, even if that's being kept quiet. I doubt very much he's just waiting for it all to die down, but I also doubt he'll say much in public.

He wants people to talk about our graduate salaries, social mobility, contribution to the regional economy. He absolutely won't want people talking about an unethical study with significant methodological flaws!

I'm really proud of some aspects of what Aston does, & I work with some incredible people (genuinely the kind of people you would want your kids to be supported by if they were at university). I guess any big -ish institution will have its share of arseholes, & we definitely do. No one from Aston has covered themselves in glory here.

It strikes me that this particular PhD is an odd fit at Aston,

It's not just the PhD. It's that two blokes scraped the whole of Mumsnet without MNHQ's nor posters' consent.

OP posts:
MaggieCalvert · 02/05/2024 07:32

I'm a long-standing, quite senior Aston academic (very different discipline though) & I've been following this with genuine embarrassment. I've created this shiny new MN account just to post on this thread, but have been around a long time.

I agree with much of what's been said already, including that this should never have got research ethics clearance (assuming of course that it did...), so I won't repeat that.

I just wanted to add some insider perspective, which I hope might be interesting/useful.

Apologies for the next paragraph sounding a bit like Aston PR. It's context. I will move on to something a bit more critical!

On the whole, Aston is generally very liberal. I'm GC (actively), & have never felt the need to hide my views at work. It's a very diverse community - lots of our students have difficult circumstances, & most academic staff work really hard to support students through issues like racism, financial difficulty & poor mental health. I've worked across HE, but I've now been at Aston a very long time, & nowhere else has been this apolitical. Everyone's just too busy dealing with shit, frankly, & there's a lot of it (some of which I'll come to)

Many courses have a compulsory placement year, and all have a technical/applied focus (even disciplines like History). This is because one of the things Aston likes to sell itself on is "usefulness" (in both teaching and research). I first came across the forensic linguistics work at Aston when I was at another university, & at that time, it was very much in this tradition - developing tools to keep children safe in online spaces, for eg. It strikes me that this particular PhD is an odd fit at Aston, for lots of reasons. However, i do work in a very different area, so maybe there's a whole ton of this type of thing going on & I'm just not aware of it.

Bits of the university are deeply, deeply sexist (HE is in general, IME, but Aston has a special brand of it). I can easily believe that it didn't occur to anyone involved (including female academics) that women posting here are also people. The misogyny at Aston is a whole other thread, but I absolutely think it's been a factor here, in the initial scrape and the uses to which the data has been put. We don't (generally) have issues with gender ideology harming women. We just have good old fashioned women-hating. It's like a little time machine (& has got worse since the VC came in a couple of years ago)

The VC himself is ruthlessly ambitious for himself and the institution. Having seen him in action, my guess would be that he's putting significant effort into protecting the university (I assume he's taken expensive legal advice). At the same time, I'm pretty confident those involved will be having a very hard time, even if that's being kept quiet. I doubt very much he's just waiting for it all to die down, but I also doubt he'll say much in public.

He wants people to talk about our graduate salaries, social mobility, contribution to the regional economy. He absolutely won't want people talking about an unethical study with significant methodological flaws!

I'm really proud of some aspects of what Aston does, & I work with some incredible people (genuinely the kind of people you would want your kids to be supported by if they were at university). I guess any big -ish institution will have its share of arseholes, & we definitely do. No one from Aston has covered themselves in glory here.

EdithStourton · 02/05/2024 07:26

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 01/05/2024 22:41

I exceeded the time limit for editing my summary. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUfxdLstIOc&t=13318 is where the researchers talk about how some Mumsnetters discuss fertility treatment, to a snigger from someone in the audience. They knew that they were collecting special category personal data.

Bastards! I missed that.

Thenk yew 4 nyew fred.

AstonIsBeingUnreasonable · 02/05/2024 07:13

AlisonDonut · 02/05/2024 06:34

I'm just a middle aged woman, sitting, waiting for a man named Claude, to insert fabric into my postbox.

A long time ago*, on a forum far far away, a comment like that would result in a flurry of Carry On film gifs, to indicate that they'd spotted an innuendo, intentional or otherwise. This has definitely rubbed off on me.

*Well, not that long ago to be honest.

AlisonDonut · 02/05/2024 06:34

I'm just a middle aged woman, sitting, waiting for a man named Claude, to insert fabric into my postbox.

AstonVillains · 02/05/2024 04:52

Continuing the musical theme (to the tune of Camptown Ladies)

🎵The Mumsnet Ladies sing this song
Doo-dah doo-dah
Scraping all our posts is wrong
Oh de-doo-dah-day

Aston you are shite
Please just go away
We all hope Justine sues you all
Better delete them today🎵

ThreeEggOmlette · 02/05/2024 00:13

Unless it turns out Emi Martinez is scraping our data, can we leave Villa alone please?

Great summary Vito 👍🏼

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 01/05/2024 23:55

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 01/05/2024 23:10

Claret's a colour
Football is a game
But if your name's Villa
Your methodology's lame

Aston Uni are unrelated to Aston Villa other than by name and geographical proximity.

But on the football theme: (to tune of Come Bye Yarr)

🎵 We said NO, Aston, we said NO.
We said NO, Aston, we said NO.
We said NO, Aston, we said NO.
Oh Aston, we said NO. 🎵

OP posts:
TheAutopsyOfMNCorpus · 01/05/2024 23:47

4 alll de Nick Caves out dare.

Thread 3: A corpus-assisted discourse analysis of linguistic transphobia on Mumsnet
CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 01/05/2024 23:11

@JanesLittleGirl I think you win! 😂

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 01/05/2024 23:10

Claret's a colour
Football is a game
But if your name's Villa
Your methodology's lame

DrSoupDragonsFriend · 01/05/2024 23:06

OP, thank you. That's a great summary.

For anyone who's braved reading back over thread 2 and was baffled by it, can I add a post-script to OP's explanation?

There was a lot of playing around with posting unusual spellings, poems, translations into many languages etc. with a view to making the identification of multiple posters difficult and the scraping of that new data, should it ever happen, a nuisance to use for research. It was a protest, and the creativity may, or may not, continue here (I can hazard a guess).

There was also a shop set up with some excellent merchandise such as t-shirts and mugs linked to gerbils - don't ask, just read Thread 2, page 21 onwards if you want to know more. Any small profits are going to GC worthy causes.

Edited to say: spoke too soon, creativity has resumed 😁

JanesLittleGirl · 01/05/2024 23:05

CityAllTheWayBooToVilla · 01/05/2024 22:52

Popping on to say very much thanks to everyone for this thread series which brings me joy and rage in equal measure.

Can we have a t-shirt in city colours please? No-one could ever have thought claret and light blue go well together, they utterly don't - bleugh

Chim chimminy chim chimminy
Chim chim cheroo
I hate the bastards
In claret and blue.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/05/2024 23:04

Thank you for the new thread @VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia Flowers

Swipe left for the next trending thread