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Maya Forstater has challenged Adam Rutherford and Ben Goldacre to set Bragg straight about Cass and systematic reviews

119 replies

RethinkingLife · 15/04/2024 16:45

Maya Forstater challenged Rutherford and Goldacre to set Billy Bragg straight on his misunderstanding of systematic reviews in re: Cass because FondofBeetles' explanation has seen her put on naughty step by TwiX.

There are a rash of people like Billy getting horribly confused about systematic reviews.

AdamRutherford bengoldacre you might want to step up now as neutral science communicators and explain how this works.

https://x.com/MForstater/status/1779422767781118224

No response from Goldacre but Rutherford responded to deny any relevant knowledge. And, yes, this is the Rutherford of Rutherford and Fry fame and the books and radio programmes ] Rutherford's TwiX bio: "I'm a scientist. President of Humanists_UK Lecturer in Genetics UCL Genetics, race, eugenics, history of science, movies, books, cricket"

It's not something I know much about.

https://twitter.com/AdamRutherford/status/1779478504930779315

To which somebody else responded with a clear Rutherford prior intervention about methodology etc.

https://twitter.com/JustMisogyny/status/1779580934448095682

And there's an interjection from Gurwinder Bhogal to Rutherford.

https://twitter.com/G_S_Bhogal/status/1779593609387421785

Maya Forstater has challenged Adam Rutherford and Ben Goldacre to set Bragg straight about Cass and systematic reviews
Maya Forstater has challenged Adam Rutherford and Ben Goldacre to set Bragg straight about Cass and systematic reviews
Maya Forstater has challenged Adam Rutherford and Ben Goldacre to set Bragg straight about Cass and systematic reviews
Maya Forstater has challenged Adam Rutherford and Ben Goldacre to set Bragg straight about Cass and systematic reviews
Maya Forstater has challenged Adam Rutherford and Ben Goldacre to set Bragg straight about Cass and systematic reviews
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TempestTost · 29/04/2024 22:00

Joe Rogan seems like a weird choice?

RiotAndAlarum · 29/04/2024 21:32

RethinkingLife · 23/04/2024 09:26

Ah, Rutherford now asking for an invite onto Joe Rogan in hopes, one imagines of making more of a splash in US market.

https://twitter.com/AdamRutherford/status/1782085031873089894

Er... that's arrogant. "@ joerogan invite me". Has he any idea how big Joe Rogan is, compared to him (AR)?

Keeprejoining · 23/04/2024 09:29

RethinkingLife · 23/04/2024 09:26

Ah, Rutherford now asking for an invite onto Joe Rogan in hopes, one imagines of making more of a splash in US market.

https://twitter.com/AdamRutherford/status/1782085031873089894

Good grief, who's he trying to position himself with now. And I used to like him. Surely it's time for him to follow in Tim Harfords footsteps on more or less

RethinkingLife · 23/04/2024 09:26

Ah, Rutherford now asking for an invite onto Joe Rogan in hopes, one imagines of making more of a splash in US market.

https://twitter.com/AdamRutherford/status/1782085031873089894

Maya Forstater has challenged Adam Rutherford and Ben Goldacre to set Bragg straight about Cass and systematic reviews
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RethinkingLife · 23/04/2024 08:19

Round about now would be a good time for Rutherford to read the Cass Review and praise the clarity of the section about the methodology in public.

Maybe belatedly say something? (My original typo was bleatedly which is apposite.)

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ConstructionTime · 19/04/2024 19:39

@RethinkingLife Thank you, I'll have a read

Merrymouse · 19/04/2024 10:26

(And I know nobody would ever accuse Jones of being a rationalist, but some things need to be shared 😆)

Merrymouse · 19/04/2024 10:25

In other Owen Jones news

https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1781088132919685606

He attributed a quote from Greenpeace to the House of Commons Defence Select Committee.

The Guardian have now issued a correction, but no acknowledgement that the two aren’t interchangeable and this rather changes the impact of the quote.

https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1781088132919685606

miri1985 · 18/04/2024 21:16

Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere as there are a lot of Cass threads but I saw a science reporter trying to set Owen Jones right
https://twitter.com/benryanwriter/status/1780805791269666991

Hes also written a blogpost about the Cass report https://benryan.substack.com/p/the-cass-review-fact-check-its-clear

https://twitter.com/benryanwriter/status/1780805791269666991

RethinkingLife · 18/04/2024 21:11

ConstructionTime · 18/04/2024 19:23

Thanks a lot for that link; I've come across the phenomenon before but did not have the vocabulary for it. Rational Man Syndrome it now is.

I find that these sentences capture their stance perfectly: "The intimation was that it was all a little bit mad and unseemly. Why would anyone get obsessed with that?" and "It’s the people who keep pointing it out who are the problem."

It's the brushing off and making it seem like those who like to investigate properly are the mad ones. Additonally it shows male priviledge, because they are not the ones who have the most to lose.

See also:

Luxury beliefs have, to a large extent, replaced luxury goods.
Luxury beliefs are ideas and opinions that confer status on the upper class, while often inflicting costs on the lower classes.

https://www.robkhenderson.com/p/status-symbols-and-the-struggle-for

Deptford Project is the classic example that turns up on MN:

https://web.archive.org/web/20180315031511/https:/twitter.com/LucyLoveslife1/status/973852316787933184

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3203804-The-Deptford-People-Project-and-the-impact-of-self-ID-and-transactivism-on-working-class-women re: www.feministcurrent.com/2018/03/23/leftist-women-uk-refuse-accept-labours-attempts-silence-critiques-gender-identity/

These luxury beliefs do not impact rational man who believes that only he can address this matters in the rational manner that they merit. Not these squeaky, emotional women who live with the consequences of these luxury beliefs.

Luxury Beliefs are Status Symbols

The struggle for distinction

https://www.robkhenderson.com/p/status-symbols-and-the-struggle-for

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OldCrone · 18/04/2024 20:56

SerendipityJane · 18/04/2024 19:22

Having attended a very well presented talk by Professor Alice Roberts (mainly for fashion tips) her science seems spot on. But as I say, the word "gender" appears in DFB rather too much.

"What gender is this skeleton ?"

Oh do fuck off.

Alice Roberts is a gender woo believer.

Lots of threads on here, like this one:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3616759-Alice-Roberts-what-the-hell

And tweets like this:
https://twitter.com/theAliceRoberts/status/1141091857193156608

https://twitter.com/theAliceRoberts/status/1141091857193156608

ConstructionTime · 18/04/2024 19:23

Plasmodesmata · 15/04/2024 21:40

Relevant article here by Victoria Smith - the sadness of Sceptical man.
https://thecritic.co.uk/the-sadness-of-sceptical-man/

Thanks a lot for that link; I've come across the phenomenon before but did not have the vocabulary for it. Rational Man Syndrome it now is.

I find that these sentences capture their stance perfectly: "The intimation was that it was all a little bit mad and unseemly. Why would anyone get obsessed with that?" and "It’s the people who keep pointing it out who are the problem."

It's the brushing off and making it seem like those who like to investigate properly are the mad ones. Additonally it shows male priviledge, because they are not the ones who have the most to lose.

SerendipityJane · 18/04/2024 19:22

Having attended a very well presented talk by Professor Alice Roberts (mainly for fashion tips) her science seems spot on. But as I say, the word "gender" appears in DFB rather too much.

"What gender is this skeleton ?"

Oh do fuck off.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 18/04/2024 17:38

Alice Robert’s talking about a debate between an archeologist and Graham Hancock (pseudo archaeologist)
“ It involves the presentation of how science works & the importance of big data, on the one hand - vs personal conviction, ideology and cherry-picked cases, with a complete ignorance of how science works, on the other. At its heart it's a conversation between science and utter nonsense”

but somehow gender identity is real and people can change sex?? how does the cognitive dissonance not make her head spin??

Maya Forstater has challenged Adam Rutherford and Ben Goldacre to set Bragg straight about Cass and systematic reviews
Keeprejoining · 18/04/2024 17:02

duc748 · 18/04/2024 11:34

Similar thoughts have been occurring to me, @MarieDeGournay . It's almost like, having, rightly, criticised the TRSOH attitude, whereby people signed up to a 'parcel of good beliefs', for some it seems the gender issue is an opportunity to insist that all the other liberal nostrums must go by the board now. The left-leaning NS, for example, is full of articles telling us that the EU is a bit shit really, and facing trouble down the line (but who isn't). Likewise complaints about vaccines and lockdowns don't go away, and in fact seems to be espoused more widely. I suppose the conservative feminism of Mary Harrington could be said to be another example, but that's not my area of knowledge! 😀Another would be the notion that insistence on electric vehicles and other policies is imposing enormous costs on Californians, who are leaving the State in droves, it seems.

But labour under a proBrexit Corbyn was neutral at best about the referendum

SerendipityJane · 18/04/2024 16:50

The ways that I learn whether I can trust someone or not. I have a few heuristics,

Don't we all ? I know I have.

RethinkingLife · 18/04/2024 16:35

Christ Williamson interviewed Gurwinder Bhogal. There was some discussion about high vs. low integrity individuals and what it takes to admit to being mistaken.

But of the high-integrity individuals, there are a lot more trustworthy than high-integrity institutions. I tend to trust individuals a lot more. The ways that I learn whether I can trust someone or not. I have a few heuristics, but for instance, one of them would be, are they willing to publicly admit when they get things wrong? Because it takes integrity to admit when you're wrong, but it takes a huge amount of integrity to do it publicly. If you can do that, and that's a very rare skill, it takes a huge amount of strength to be able to go out there and say, Okay, I was wrong.
[00:22:53]And so that, for me, is a very good indicator that somebody is high integrity. It shows that they value the truth more than their own ego.

Transcript: https://www.happyscribe.com/public/modern-wisdom/742-gurwinder-bhogal-17-shocking-lessons-about-human-psychology

Transcript of #742 - Gurwinder Bhogal - ... | Happy Scribe

Transcript and discussion of #742 - Gurwinder Bhogal - 17 Shocking Lessons About Human Psychology from Modern Wisdom podcast

https://www.happyscribe.com/public/modern-wisdom/742-gurwinder-bhogal-17-shocking-lessons-about-human-psychology

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Snowypeaks · 18/04/2024 12:39

MariedeGournay, duc
Quite right. We haven't rejected the parcelling up of left-ish beliefs only to pick up a different parcel.
We agree on this one thing. That's massive. Let's not push it.

PoochiesPinkEars · 18/04/2024 11:36

nauticant · 15/04/2024 17:21

I find myself completely unsurprised at Dr Adam Rutherford being a dissembling coward over this.

Completely agree.

duc748 · 18/04/2024 11:34

Similar thoughts have been occurring to me, @MarieDeGournay . It's almost like, having, rightly, criticised the TRSOH attitude, whereby people signed up to a 'parcel of good beliefs', for some it seems the gender issue is an opportunity to insist that all the other liberal nostrums must go by the board now. The left-leaning NS, for example, is full of articles telling us that the EU is a bit shit really, and facing trouble down the line (but who isn't). Likewise complaints about vaccines and lockdowns don't go away, and in fact seems to be espoused more widely. I suppose the conservative feminism of Mary Harrington could be said to be another example, but that's not my area of knowledge! 😀Another would be the notion that insistence on electric vehicles and other policies is imposing enormous costs on Californians, who are leaving the State in droves, it seems.

MarieDeGournay · 18/04/2024 11:17

While I relished reading Mary Harrington's and Julie Burchill's take-downs of the reverse ferreting by former TRA 'allies', in each case there was a 'whaat?' moment: JB took a sideswipe at climate change, and MH at Covid lockdowns, as if they put these into the same basket as trans ideology.

Covid lockdowns may or may not have been necessary/the right idea/motivated by groupthink, but for heaven's sake, bodies were literally-literally piling up around the world because of the highly infectious nature of Covid, and keeping people away from each other as much as possible seemed at the time to be a plausible, and indeed the only way, to stop thousands of us from dying, until a vaccination could be found - uh-oh, vaccinations..🙄

It's interesting that 'public opinion' now seems to be split between blaming politicians for rushing irrationally to lockdowns because of 'a chaotic tangle of magical thinking, fear, and the threat of social ostracism'. [MH in UnHerd], and blaming politicians for not locking down soon enough for fear of political fallout, (also caused arguably by a different 'chaotic tangle of magical thinking, fear, and the threat of social ostracism') thereby causing the avoidable deaths of thousands of people.

Covid, climate change, trans ideology - forced teaming?

CantDealwithChristmas · 18/04/2024 08:00

shockeditellyou · 16/04/2024 20:18

I work with academics like this and they are not, and never have been, about the data,p. They are all about being Right, and ideally taking down the perceived establishment du jour. There was a time when their schtick coincided with socially acceptable viewpoints and genuinely good things (uncovering dodgy pharma practice, for example), but that was a success because their work was entirely fitting with the prevailing liberal world view, and they were therefore the Good Guys.

People like this are the absolute poster children for why many liberal viewpoints are no different from those espoused by GB news and the like, despite their smug sense of superiority and should be rigorously scrutinised. Goldacre and Rutherford are the modern union leaders, braying about equality for all (except women who are taking jobs from Hard Working Men, and should get back to making the tea).

Oxford should be embarrassed and ashamed to have Goldacre as a Professor of Evidence Based Medicine.

I can't agree hard enough with this. People tend to assume that academics these days all adhere to the fine Enlightenment traditions of empiricism and objectivity. Unfortunately, it's such a crabs-in-a-barrel milieu (especially in the social sciences but increasingly in the hard sciences too) that getting funding and jobs is now more about having the 'correct' views and being invited to the right bien pensant dinner parties. And for a certain type of straight male academic, using 'science to own the silly little women' is practically a life's calling.

Maths and physics are the last two holdouts and long may that continue.

But we GC reality-seers have never been able to rely on mainstream academia in this fight. Given that fact, the successes of our movement are all the more extraordinary.

RethinkingLife · 16/04/2024 22:10

BeBraveLittlePenguin · 16/04/2024 20:10

"It must be galling for Rutherford, as the foremost communicator for science and a critic of bad research and quackery, to have – somehow – missed the big medical/scientific scandal story of the age."

Glorious shade thrown by the Speccie today 😀

For anyone who hasn't seen it. NB: there are so many that I admit I'd forgotten about what had happened to Christian Henson with Spitfire Audio.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-cant-stonewalls-ex-boss-come-clean-about-its-trans-obsession/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11188531/Top-Gear-Poirot-music-composer-cancelled-company-JK-Rowling-support.html

Re: the Halloween photos - I'd no idea Stranger Things has been running since 2016. I've not seen it. Is the outfit the character Eleven?

Why can't Stonewall's ex-boss come clean about its trans obsession?

The few days since the publication of the Cass report – the probe into ‘gender identity’ services for young people – have been a revelation

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-cant-stonewalls-ex-boss-come-clean-about-its-trans-obsession

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GrumpyMenopausalScathingWombWielder · 16/04/2024 21:28

I didn't think the name would fit tbh. Who knew? 🤷🏻‍♀️

It's a Halloween outfit apparently.

Link to additional image

Snowypeaks · 16/04/2024 20:47

@GrumpyMenopausalScathingWombWielder
Congratulations on the length of your username.

So is that a genuine picture of Adam Rutherford?

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