Why are separate spaces for trans people unacceptable (to trans people)?

I dont understand it either really, but the people here who say we only need two are equally delusional. I try to use the mens room when i can, but a lot of the time i hear "your in the wrong bathroom" because a man assumes im a woman, and so i leave and wait until its empty because i dont know how he'll react to me saying im trans. if women couldnt convince men to be nice in 10,000 years how are tw supposed to have convinced them in 50. it makes sense to say tw are vulnerable to male violence because men hate everyone who's different, and even if exogenous estrogen doesn't make you nearly as weak as a female it does make you several times weaker then non trans males.

I suppose in terms of sports, if you have all trans people competing in the same event then you have exactly the same issue as you have if trans people compete with males / female events.

i.e. there will be some trans people who are biologically male and some who are biologically female all in the same event.

So you'd need one event for trans men, one event for trans women, and I'm not sure what non binary people do. And if you split it up that much, there's the issue of how many competitors you would even have in those events and whether there would be enough to make a decent event.

I'm not advocating for or against - it's just complicated whatever you do.

To add - I've heard the opposite side of this argument put forward to silly women who fear the presence of men in their spaces.

As in - well, if anything were to happen, you could report it (after the event, obviously). Which begs the question - if a TW was targeted for being a bit different to other men using the men only spaces, surely he could just report it?

Just to be clear - I don't want anyone to be assaulted. I accept that these men might feel uncomfortable if they were 'dressed' and using the correct single sex space. But this is an issue for men to solve. Women should not be forced to budge up.

I think it was Magdalen Burns who said - men should just stop being dicks to other men who look a bit different to them (or words to that effect)

The argument though would be that you haven’t noticed all the transwomen who do pass. Yes, I’ve noticed transwomen but how many transwomen were there that I didn’t notice because they passed.
It’s like when people say that they didn’t wear seatbelts in a car and they are still alive now, well that’s because all the people who died aren’t here to say that.

That said, I’ve yet to meet a transwomen who passed.

Because:

"Bridges expressed concerns about her safety if she were to compete alongside men"

Oof. The enormous irony.

@RebelliousCow completely agree with you about the unisex toilets in Factory. My heart sank when I went in with my kids.

They've done the same with Manchester Museum, but at least there's the option to go (out of your way) to the single sex toilets in the basement.

bringbacktheladiesloos · Today 08:55

What are the stats for number of transwomen attacked in male toilets?

As far as I'm aware, there aren't any, or at least no one has been able to find any. We just get India, LOJ & co saying, "As we know, there's an epidemic of violence against transw in male toilets."

And expecting everyone to accept it as fact.

The transmen I know tend to use the disabled loos (but they don’t pass as men)

None. None whatsoever.

Women and children however, have been assaulted by TW in women's toilets.

But who gives a shit about the physically weaker and smaller people, as long as the physically larger and stronger sex get what they want? Yeah, it really is that batshit.

Fionne Orlander and Blaire White, both very pretty and what might be considered 'passing' TW, use the men's toilets without incident and have written about it.

Are you new to this topic? The WHOLE point is to invade the spaces off women and girls, same for sports, business and everything else. However it might be good to have such designated transgender spaces, as they would be left empty then us women could use them.

I’d have thought there were huge opportunities here for ‘allies’ to be supportive.

Women who wanted to use the unisex loos could do so to show solidarity & normalise it.

Men like Owen Jones, Billy Bragg & Dinosaur Dave Lammy could lead the push for transwomen to be safe & accepted in the correct toilet for their sex.

I know one who does use them. I think 'happily' is stretching it a bit though, as men's loos are grim, which often gets commented on!

What are the stats for number of transwomen attacked in male toilets?

As this is cited as the main reason transwomen feel unsafe in men's toilets it's surely been recorded somewhere?

because you would be outing so many people who have lived in their identity for years- there are plenty of people who are trans and passing, contrary to the popular mumsnet belief that all trans people are men in drag 🙄. You would be demanding people disclose a part of their identity that is so open to personal risk and harm- just see the comments in this thread- just to go to the loo.

What comments in this thread put men with trans identities at risk?

And 'outing' - do you mean acknowledging someone's sex? Is it outing for someone to be able to take one glance at me and know I'm female? Of course it's not, it's just the same as noticing I have brown hair or I'm 5' tall. It's not 'outing' in the slightest for someone to acknowledge their own, or someone else's sex!

So your proposal is that if a trans identifying man is passing, then they should be allowed to go in the ladies? Who determines if they pass? that sounds demeaning for me, demanding some kind of femininity standard to be allowed into ladies, rather than simply going off a person's immutable sex!

My male gay friends who go to saunas and bathhouses are VERY CLEAR that they do not accept transmen in those spaces because they view them ( correctly) as women. Apparently happens a fair bit as not all transmen are ( as the popular assumption goes) just basically butch presenting lesbians but women who , for whatever complicated psychosexual reason, want to have sex with gay men.

There is no 'be kind' about it - those men are there to have sex with each other and absolutely recognise a female body for what it is and want no part of it.

But because they are men, and have more power than women, they get to say No Thank You and absolutely nobody is throwing their toys out of the pram about the lack of inclusion in Male spaces.

The transmen I know do pass quite well day to day by looking like short, slight men. They use men's loos and changing rooms ( cubicles though) and anecdotally have had no trouble doing so.

So what argument do they put forward?

The arguments are pretty straightforward. They are…

1. That TWAW so belong in women’s spaces.
2. Keeping TW out of single sex spaces and expecting them to use 3rd spaces is comparable to keeping black women out of women’s spaces and expecting them to use 3rd spaces.

Obviously if you believe TWAM this argument falls flat on its face.

From what I can see in debates it is because they don’t want to be treated as trans, they wanted to be treated as the gender they identify with so a transwoman going to a transtoilet feels discriminated against because she is a woman in her mind…

And this is the crazyness of all the trans issues

Because if you're cosplaying as a woman and you're not allowed to go in the women's spaces and instead are shunted into a room with other men who are cosplaying as women, where's the fun in that? The whole point is that you're mistaken for a woman, or at least that women have to tolerate you cosplaying as them and they're not allowed to complain about it. That's how you get off!

Maybe we need xx chromosome toilets and women’s toilets. Then the trans women will be happy about the label on the door and the real women will have a protected space.

God it’s infuriating.

Men, especially, don't pass even if they think they do. I see an increasing number of men presenting in female clothing/attire where I live - and it is always very obvious that they are male; what is also obvious is that a significant number of then are dressing for fetishistic/sexual reasons. I've seen some sights, I can tell you - and have also felt very strongly that for some there is also a strongly voyeuristic element of being 'thrilled' to be in a female space.

Most men now claiming trans identities are AGPs - which by definition is a sexual orientation. Their 'identity' does not and cannot take precedence over the feelings, comfort, dignity or safety of women and girls.

Third gender neutral spaces and categories ensure everyone can feel safe and everyone has some dignity. The reason that many reject them is that validation is the primary desire - and that need and desire for validation is imposed on others ( women and girls) even when they don't feel comfortable with it at all.

OP, there was a lively thread related to this topic just a few days ago.
Unfortunately it became all about one poster by the end, but it's worth a read if you've got time on your hands!😄

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5009174-does-anyone-actually-fully-support-trans-people-in-womens-changing-rooms-and-loos

... but.... Be niiiiiiiiiice.

Surely the logical conclusion is to campaign for third spaces?

Logic doesn’t come into this “debate”. If it did, it would all fall apart.

But if a transperson (particularly a man identifying as a woman) prefers to avoid male lavatories because of the risk of potential male violence, then that is wholly a male problem to solve; why is it always women who have to shift along and make room on the bench and give up their hard won private spaces?

Open public disapproval is the usual method for ensuring that single sex spaces are honoured and that people can feel confident in calling offenders out.

Even with floor to ceiling cubicles there will still be an external corridor which is mixed sex - this also poses potential safety issues for women and girls -especially in the night time economy. Plus if this would still cause many women to feel uncomfortable or unsafe then why do it - when distinct facilities could be made available for those that don't feel comfortable or safe using those for their own sex?

The new mixed sex toilets at the new Factory arts building in Manchester are an unpleasant and uncomfortable experience for many. Why is this necessary?