Sunak in PMQs - thread 2

I will not accept this twisting of words.

Someone was calling out mothers using their own empathy against them.

That was the context.
It was completely taken out of the context you and that poster are now trying to shove it back into.
No.

There's nothing disgusting at saying a mother's distress is hers to do with a she sees fit and that may include watching her child struggle and you are not allowed to leverage that struggle and call it disgusting.

that poster was making a strawman argument about mothers and their children, not talking about this particular child.

No.

Some people want or need to be trans, I don't want to be part of a society that stops them, but you are right, other people's rights have to be protected to. Nobody should be called a bigot for raising reasonable concerns and there are instances where men to women trans will have to reasonably face restrictions becuase of their muscle strength advantage etc and because of what they represent to women, who need safe spaces. It's a shame that we have a society where some men are so violent and continue to attack and kill and that's our big issue I think not trans people. Interestingly nobody really cares about women to men trans, which also says a lot, as the fear is about violence or unfair advantage maybe and women to men don't represent that? It has been interesting to discuss though, as I haven't really thought about it much before and obviously people here do care deeply. I do think it's a good point about young people transitioning early though as they may not know what they really need (but that's another discussion and I ahve to go and clean the house, gender stereotyped I know but true!)

Why am I angry?

I'm angry that children are being encouraged to transition and are being put on a lifetime of medication effectively making them infertile.

I'm angry that allowing males in to female only spaces makes them mixed sex meaning many women and girls will self exclude from those spaces, many of whom will be vulnerable.

I'm angry that women are being assaulted by males in female prisons.

I'm angry that women in sport can not compete with men so are losing out on trophies, sponsorship etc.

I'm angry that women's refuges now contain men so the only place they can go to does not put their needs first.

I'm angry that women and children of Transwomen who transition later in life are never thought of whilst society is telling the Transwomen how brave and stunning they are.

I'm angry that if anyone points out the above, they are often called bigots and in some cases have been arrested or lost their jobs for wrong think.

Why are you not angry?

I'm also angry about the things you mention too. I can be angry about many things at the same time.

Sorry for the terminology, it has moved on probably, I am quite old!

I agree with you there that no violent rapist (trans or otherwise) should be put in with women or with men (men get raped too) they need to be segregated.

Hermaphrodite 😳

I assume you mean people with disorders of sexual development

also trans men are women so no there’s no problem with them being in women’s prisons

I expect though that you meant trans women

Enjoy life, we're not here for long and try not to 'punch down' is always a good rule to live by I find.

Oh indeed. That's why so many of us are standing up for women in refuges, women in prisons, women in care homes. You claim with one breath to have worked with women in prison, and in the next that putting violent rapists in women's prisons is a non-issue that only rich people care about.

You are, to put it at its kindest, not making any sense.

Honestly I don't get your anger about 'gender bollocks'. I get the anger about waiting on NHS waiting lists (especially for families like yours with huge health issues) , about crap housing, crap wages etc, but just can't get the anger over this. Why does it really affect you? Is it because you think it's stupid and you are being lied too and that the reality is there are two sexes? Well mostly that is true but nature creates hermaphrodites, it's ok for nature, why not for us? I wish working class people would get more angry about the state of this country, once upon a time working class people marched for jobs, for union representation, for an NHS, now they just seem to care about whether Harry and Meghan get on with Charles or whether someone is a boy or a girl. I was born in the early 1960s and have watched one thing after another disappear. Most of the council housing I grew up is gone and is now in private hands, the NHS increasingly becoming privatised, the free university places gone, the affordability of buying a house for most people - gone, it's shit for young people now! As for the climate debate, well I will be dead, but my kids and if they have any their kids, will have to face it head on. Sorry but I just can't get myself worked up about trans and still think Sunak is an arse to say what he did, when that poor mum was there and if he didn't know she was there then he's incompetent, either way he is useless.

Exactly. It's very simple. If woman can mean men and women then, as we have been saying on this board for years, there will no longer be any women's rights

It really pisses me off when posters come on here telling us what we should and shouldn't care about.

@DialSquare I sometimes wonder what planet people who think that women's rights is a luxury middle class belief live on?

No one really thinks women can have penises. It's not a class issue.

But all those things are happening under a Tory administration. Why does Sunak not do something instead of making stupid quips? Is it because these issues aren't actually high on his agenda?

I think you have to be a certain kind of well-heeled, time-rich person, to care this much about the trans debate, the rest of us really have other more pressing issues to contend with.

I care deeply about the Trans debate because it is having a serious impact on women and children. I also have a daughter with blood cancer and brain and heart issues, a parent with dementia, a parent with various ailments including cancer, a step parent who recently came out if a 3 month coma due to a serious health issue and a partner with mobility problems.. I work full time and trying to split my time to support them all has been bloody horrendous so no, I'm not time rich.

I grew up on a council estate in the east end of London and know many people that have been to prison including a late sibling. So, I don't fall under the well heeled part either. No one I know buys in to the gender bollocks.

It really doesn't matter that much though does it, it's just semantics. You're entitled to your opinion as I am and that's important to have freedom of thought and speech. I also worked as a medical secretary at Barts Hospital many moons ago (I've had a lot of different jobs that paid the bills!) and was in the endocrinology department. A beautiful young woman, newly married and unable to have children was referred, turned out she was XY, a true male genetically but also a true hermaphrodite. Nature creates diversity, don't be too hung up on binary constructs. Enjoy life, we're not here for long and try not to 'punch down' is always a good rule to live by I find.

I've only just spotted this thread.

But this from @AdamRyan 's OP sticks out to me:

All views welcome.

Yet on thread 1 on this issue she strongly implied that those of who think that Starmer was the one who inappropriately raised a child's murder to shut down debate were the victims of a Sunak led group manipulation technique.

So I'm not sure Adam really means that all views are welcome.

I'm also not sure why we need a second thread on this, it seems quite disrespectful to Brianna and her family to me, her mother doesn't want the focus to be on this issue, she wants to be able to use her platform to do good to raise issues of social media use for teens.

So what was the purpose of the second thread? It seems that Adam wants to continue to stop debate about this issue by focusing on her 'nasty tory' agenda. This neither helps the legacy that Brianna's mother seeks nor a healthy debate that needs to take place about the ongoing erosion of women's rights.

I'm not sure you aware of how bad the situation for women in jails in the U.S is?
The situation there is crazy. Violent and abusive men are routinely put in women's jails. We do not want that to happen here.

I've also taught in a prison, and with people with vulnerabilities and special needs, and I don't see how being aware of the impact of gender identity ideology means that we cannot care about the other harms and sufferings you mention?

But can't you see you are accepting without any critical analysis at all, the very concept of a 'trans identity'? You may put this down to being simply 'loving' and 'accepting' of people - but in being so undiscriminating you are failing to see the wider implications for society and in particular for children and women in particular of this set of ideas in practice.

Gender identity is a construct;a concept - not an indicator of reality. Reality of sort that we can use to order and organise society for the dignity and benefit of all.

Yes, she is very close to her brother, and as such as taken on board, without criticism, the idea that being against trans ideology is just the same as being homophobic.

It was very evident to me during the Tory party Leadership contest that Penny Mordaunt is not that rational. Her thinking was certainly confused and her points were all over the place. during her campaign speech. She couldn't articulate points clearly at all. Those transfixed by her good looks and sex appeal fail to notice that.

I've worked in a women's prison teaching basic skills, I've worked with some of the poorest people, doing similar work, to help them gain qualifications to get good jobs. I have also come from a very poor background myself and I have found a lot of tolerance of difference and vulnerability amongst people who are more disadvantaged. The prison I worked in was a women's prison in London and lots of the women had been abused and traumatised by men it's true and that was part of the reason they were there. It's the lack of support, the closing of women's refuge centres, the lack of affordable housing for women to leave their abusive partners, the mental health support needed, the lack of real training, the poverty wages, not the few trans-men in this country that is such a problem. Stop trying to focus the ills of society on a few souls who have decided to change their gender identity. And please don't tell me I don't care, I have spent a lifetime working with disadvantaged people, for not much money and still continue to work, well into my 60s. Your judgment of me when you don't know me and saying I don't care, says much about you, none of it good.

Add to the above - that there will always be those who are more politically attuned to movements in society, and who are actively interested in them, than others. I'd say most people are not naturally political at all - they simply have 'political' opinions and views which they pick up from their environment and those in their immediate circle.

Those who are naturally political tend to intuit things early on and realise the implications. Most people are blind to the implications of authoritarian trans ideology, nor do they understand the roots from which it springs. They will only realise something when it impacts on them personally and very directly - and then they will wonder " How on earth was this allowed to happen?" or "How on earth did this come about"?

Peter Boghossian has spoken about groups whose viewpoints are based on ideas about what is morally right, being unresponsive to changing their minds based on evidence. The ideas are evidence free in the first place, so they see no reason to engage in evidence at all.

PM has a trans activist brother and another brother who is a convicted sex offender.

This is such an important point. People spending all their time trying to discredit posters on here haven't noticed what's happening in the rest of society. A quick glance in places online where ordinary people voice their opinions (not twitter) shows that it's true that "ordinary people are quietly cheering Sunak on because they're absolutely sick to death of the endless pandering to the sensitivities of trans activists"
Parents aren't cheering on the gaslighting of children in schools that their bodies are wrong and that changing sex is the solution - they're horrified. Workers confronted with the compulsory DEI "training" that misrepresents the law and erases women are seeing it for the manipulative bullshit that it is. Sport, parkrun, terrible crimes falsely attributed to women, censorship and all the rest. People are finally speaking out.
For all the empathy that everyone has for Esther Ghey and her family, the population is now seeing that the unthinking promotion of this ideology, especially at children is having a dreadful impact on society.

I thought Penny Mordaunts comments interesting. She mentioned that many in the chamber had family members who " were trans" ( 'Identified' as the opposite sex). It would be interesting to know which MPs those are.

I think you have to be a certain kind of well-heeled, time-rich person, to care this much about the trans debate, the rest of us really have other more pressing issues to contend with

On the contrary. The people who bear the brunt of trans ideology are the very worst off in society - female prisoners, female domestic abuse victims, female rape victims, homeless women in need of shelter, as well as disabled and sick women who have to rely on intimate care and have no say about whether their carer is a woman or a man pretending to be a woman.

It is possible, of course, that the average working-class or lower middle class person worrying about their bills doesn't have the time to concern themselves with the suffering of the worst-off. But all the more reason why those of us who have time and money should fight their corner instead. And you may not care very much, but I know I speak for many on this board when I say we will fight till our dying breath for those women.

It's ridiculous to accuse Sunak of disrespect, he was taking the piss out of Starmer, who then shouted in faux outrage and the only thing people heard was Starmer shouting, then they believed him.

Because he was shouting and giving out a pretense out righteous indignation.

It reminds of my SiL, who never misses an opportunity to put words in my mouth, in company and then have a go. Before the London Olympics, we were at a do at hers and her husband said,

"Great show by Danny Boyle." I said, "Who's Danny Boyle?"

She shouted, "What?! You've never heard of Train Spotting?! Ridiculous! Ridiculous! I can't BELIEVE you can talk such rubbish!"

It caught everyone's attention and they concluded that I'd said what she said. It's exactly the same sort of low down tactic.