Sunak in PMQs - thread 2

Lol I don't find you cruel, just close minded and a tad patronising. I am sorry if I don't have your obsessive interest in the subject, but it takes a few minutes of googling to see a wide array of differing points of views and yours is just one; it's a big world out there and many don't agree with you, including me.

Sorry - I responded to your post by mistake.......it was meant for Carlapig

I think the point was to @Carlapig1 who claimed this person as an example of feminist theory.

I know Julia Serrano is male. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with my point?

Jesus.

And we're supposed to listen to that male fetishist for feminist theory?

The world's gone mad.

"WHILE I NEVER REALLY BELIEVED THE CLICHÉ ABOUT WOMEN BEING
GOOD FOR ONLY ONE THING, I FOUND THAT THAT SENTIMENT KEPT
CREEPING INTO MY FANTASIES. I WOULD IMAGINE MYSELF BEING SOLD
INTO SEX SLAVERY AND HAVING STRANGE MEN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF ME.
IT'S CALLED FORCED FEMINIZATION, AND IT'S NOT REALLY ABOUT SEX. IT IS
ABOUT TURNING THE HUMILIATION YOU FEEL INTO PLEASURE,
TRANSFORMING THE LOSS OF MALE PRIVILEGE INTO THE BEST FUCK EVER."
JULIA SERANO
"WHIPPING GIRL"

Julia Serrano is a man.

Wanting to keep women and children safe is not 'petty hatred'.

More one sided ignorance...and I'm sorry if you find that "cruel".

Britain is actually leading the way in the push back against this ideology ( a set of idea and constructs which seek to explain how the world works); and gradually more and more other countries are waking up and starting to take a step back.

The George Soros 'Open Society' Foundation is actually responsibile for pushing trans ideology around the world, inclding into countries with no history of it. It is borne of a post modernistic American campus set of ideologies that are actually quite alien and indifferent to the cultures onto which they have been imposed.

Well you and I are never going to agree.

And that's OK.

For me, I know that human's can't change sex.

I know that women (by that I mean those of us born female) need single sex spaces for safety and dignity.

That's not transphobic, it's putting females first. Women who centre males in their feminism, are not in my opinion, feminists.

Then there is a thin line to men's right's activism if what you really support is putting the wishes of these males above the real needs of vulnerable women.

Because ultimately trans women can be safe without accessing women's single sex spaces, but no suggestion of that nature is ever good enough.

Carlapig1
"Some authors, such as Julia Serano and Emi Koyama, have founded a stream within feminism called transfeminism which views the struggle for the rights of trans people and trans women in particular as an integral part of the feminist struggle for all women's rights"

No. Feminism is the struggle for the rights of all women. Men who claim to be women are not women. The rights - strictly speaking, privileges - they want are inimical to women's rights and freedoms. There is no reason at all for feminism to include them, let alone centre them. Women who claim to be men, on the other hand, are part of the feminist struggle.

It just seems as if you are not very familiar or au fait with some of the central issues when it comes to the critique of gender ideology. In fact you don't even seem to recognise that it is an ideology.

It was You brought up your age as an excuse for why you were not familiar with terminology.

This is not a "newspaper led hysteria". Many of us here have been active and involved for years in trying to force the public debate and get it into the newspapers - which it now is. But these developments do not happen without people acting to make sure they happen in the first instance.

There are plenty of people here who have themselves sufferd dysphoria and can describe it. There are plenty of stories from de-transitioners who can also describe it. There is plenty of material out there if you have any interest.

We can all care about multiple issues, not just one or two.

Well thank you for joining in and having a decidedly less antagonistic tone than rebel cow, it was turning into a cow v pig battle there.

"Some authors, such as Julia Serano and Emi Koyama, have founded a stream within feminism called transfeminism, which views the struggle for the rights of trans people and trans women in particular as an integral part of the feminist struggle for all women's rights"

I have decided that I am throwing my lot in with the above I think we all agree on women's rights being important if nothing else. Let us sisters just agree to disagree. I am sure there is much that unites us in our struggles✊

Haha!

Your brand of feminism seems to be the equivalent of 'paint by numbers'.

I don't even know where to start with this. But I'll try.

It's not a trans debate. No one is debating trans people. It is the erosion of women's rights that is the issue most of us have. Laws were introduced the last time Labour were in government which have had, perhaps unintended (initially) consequences on women. Since those laws were introduced we have the frankly untenable and unbelievable situation that there is a legal fiction that some males can have their birth certificates amended to state that they are legally female. Originally it was a 'workaround' for gay marriage which was illegal but times have moved on since then, thank goodness.

Those laws have since been used by lobby groups like Stonewall to lobby organisations to believe that gender is what is relevant not sex. Fast forward 20 years since the introduction of the 'Legal Female' and we have women unable to get single sex rape crisis support, rapists in women's prisons, males winning & competing in women's sport and so on.

None of us want trans people to cease to exist, we want fairness for women. Women weren't consulted about the impact of these laws on our spaces, they were just invaded. None of this is unreasonable if you believe women are as important as men.

With regards to your suggestion that if more money is invested in schools perhaps less children would identify as trans, then many of us agree. But fundamentally the activists would think that this is a transphobic position. We want the many reasons for the explosion in numbers of trans identifying children to be looked at because the children who tend to be going on pathways to bodily harm and infertility (the impact of medical transition on them) are the vulnerable children.

So this has nothing to do with being unkind to trans people it's about keeping women and children safe.

This should be very uncontroversial in a democratic society.

Both of the main political parties need to do more on this.

However absurd and cruel the British and US anti-trans bullies are, the global political momentum is in the other direction. Most countries are improving their trans rights and many are puzzled or concerned by the petty hatred in the UK. They have learned one of the things we learned about lesbians and gays after the hysteria of the ’80s: letting people who are doing no harm to others be themselves improves not only their lives but also society. (cited in Open Democracy). A bit of research done by me, thanks for the suggestion😄

What do you mean the debate has moved on? It's a trans debate, there have always been people with all kinds of opinion on this yours, is just one, as is mine. I find your reference to my age, unpleasant, my views are not due to my age, they are due to the fact that I think that this is becoming a kind of newspaper led hysteria, when the real issues are elsewhere. Get some more money into mental health, stop stupid education that only cares about league tables and grades and focuses on real learning and kids might start feeling more comfortable in their bodies and some might choose not transition and then again they still might, who knows, unless you are experiencing it you don't and neither do I.

The debate has also moved on and I suggest you do a bit more research and reading before dismissing people as. " hung up" and " punching down" etc. Being 61 years of age is no excuse,

So the young person had a previously unidentified DSD - and was actually bioogically male - like Caster Semenya.

I'm not " hung up on binary constructs", though people who believe in gender are. Sex is real, and it matters in certain circumstances; it also has consequences and implications.These implications and consequences matter, particularly for women and girls.

One's sex does not determine everything about you; we are all unique and have our individual characteristics and patterns - but believing that one is in the wrong body because one likes things associated with the opposite sex is just retrograde and truly binary nonsense.

I don't think it is true that people don't care about women identifying as men.
There are many threads which discuss the issue of young lesbians, and autistic girls, now feeling they have to, or want to transition; and threads which look at the multiple stories from female de-transitioners who outline the pressures and circumstances surrounding this desire to 'transition'.

Once again, you uncritically accept the notion that 'being a trans' is an actual thing - rather than a contemporary way of framing one's experience of discomfort in one's body or in one's self. One that is now very prevalent, and which creates issues of social contagion; especially for gender non conforming girls and young women.

I think your SIL comment sounds OK, just slight hyperbole rather than "putting words in your mouth".

Maybe you don't see a problem with it because you do similar all over MN?

Someone says 'I'm not voting Labour because of X"
You then accuse them of being die-hard conservatives who just can't wait to vote Tory. It happens over and over again.

Do you really not see it?

Don't be so priggish. It is well established that loads of men fancy her, and confuse that with her having suitability for the job. Her campaign speeches were vague, woolly and incoherent.