Sunak in PMQs - thread 2

The "haven't you got better things to worry about" argument never stacks up. I wonder why people persist with it. I've concluded that can only come from a very narrow world view.

The issue is not just one of violent men, but also very much about one of the privacy and dignity of one's sex. We know that many men are motivated to transition by AGP ( read Janice Turner's interview a few days ago with Debbie Hayton - in the Times - you can find links on this forum) and the erotic drive lies behind that. Women do not want to be walk on parts in someone's erotic fantasy in situations where they are undressed or vulnerable. and they don't want their daughters or grandaughters or pupils subject to it, either.

Men/males have a greater propensity to all sorts of behaviours: voyeurism; fetish; flashing ( self exposure); heavy breathing phone calls ( ask anyone who works on a help line). There is now plenty of evidence of males violating women's boundaries in order to achieve a thrill or to validate their 'identity'.

I come across men presenting as women quite frequently where i live - and it is very apparent that most are driven by eroticism and voyeurism. As with your example of Julia Serrano - women and womanhood are perceived in very sexualised terms.

We don't accept the term 'cis' here - because i've I've tried to explain to you on several occasions ( without response from you) - such terms form part of a whole ideological construct. If you don't adhere or buy into this construct they have no meaning - in fact it is quite insulting to suggest to women that they are just one kind of woman - and that males can be women too.

Women are adult human females. Being a woman has got nothing specifically to do with gender roles or clothing presentations.

I am particularly enjoying the claims we are condescending in a post that patronises and drips with condescension, all here read this and educate yourselves you thick women.

We've moved onto the women you are purely on this earth to be validation tools, human shields and collateral damage for males with special feels and this poster thinks that is feminist.

Plus ca change from the male panderers.

The mask slipped with the referring to women as cis, twaw and women must be allies.

one of the fastest slips ever

I had a violent father who beat my mum, she took my sister and me and left him, which was very brave of her, but died a few years later, when I was only eleven. I totally get the fear of what men can do to women and how important spaces are for women to run to

i am so sorry to hear that

Impossible to take anyone seriously when they cite Julia Serrano as a feminist. It's notable that Carlapig1 completely ignored the posted comment from the fragrant Serrano so one deduces that they think that is hunky dory, super feminist and no doubt empowering.

The mask slipped with the referring to women as cis, twaw and women must be allies.

Allies = Handmaidens

I think she's certainly given me a good laugh, @RufustheFactualReindeer

If that is aimed at me well let me point out that I am extremely hard to wind up.

You'll have to try a lot harder than that.

But if you are simply on a wind up I feel a bit sorry for you. Don't you have better things to do at the weekend?

Some people on here do deserve a bit of winding up as they are so biased and condescending! However, having slept on it I've decided that to be fair some people on here are also just afraid and I get that. I had a violent father who beat my mum, she took my sister and me and left him, which was very brave of her, but died a few years later, when I was only eleven. I totally get the fear of what men can do to women and how important spaces are for women to run to. Here is a nice article that understands women's justifiable fears but says trans people are scared too and cis women need to understand that and be allies.
Trans Women Are Women. It's Time to Move Past Harmful Debate | TIME

Its honestly really sad, you’ve nothing better to do 😩

Not easily wound up at all, its been seen so often on here thats its just a bit, well boring I suppose

Follows the same pattern ‘oh i am just an innocent wanderer 🥺 just happened to come across FWR, I’ve no idea what’s happening 🥹 why are people so mean 😭’

Not wound up. Just reiterating the facts for the many lurkers on this board. Operation Let Them Speak does a lot of the work for us.

It's always the same pattern - start with faux naive questions but then the self control slips and the "anti trans bigot" accusations start. 😂

Long may we stay insecure. The constant worry keeps us on our toes from those who are certain about what our children should be comfortable with.

You lot are actually very easily wound up though, there are some very insecure parents on this thread😉

Yep. We've gone from be kind, to I've not really thought about it, to anti trans accusations and posting the usual TRA articles.

And definitely do not take it as any kind of context for the UK's reputation as Terf Island. Read Material Girls by Kathleen Stock if you want to know why UK women (not only feminists) are opposed to gender ideology. She also usefully clarifies the various different meanings of "gender" which are unhelpfully conflated or used interchangeably in that article.

I would describe that article as inaccurate, ill-informed, one-sided and misleading - rather than interesting.

However I did appreciate this bit...
Now, gender critical ideas and groups had certainly existed before this point, but it was especially the GRA reform consultation that made these groups in the U.K. prominent and vocal. At the time of the consultation, there was a large bunch of new gender critical organizations that sort of sprung up from the ground and they were founded specifically for the purpose of resisting the proposed reforms, and indeed, they succeeded. The proposed reforms did not, on the whole, materialize, to a large part because of the campaigns these groups put forward.

Woohoo! Take a bow, wimmin!

Interesting article that puts this debate in a bit more context for me.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2022-06-29/how-anti-trans-feminism-took-hold-in-the-u-k

I'm an ex teacher, with a daughter currently teaching. And what I know is that the generations now coming through have had their fill of gender nonsense - even as they have to entertain it from some of their activist teachers and over indulged classmates. There is often a roll of the eyes and a sardonic wit; with jokes about being "cancelled"

My seventeen year old neice thinks the trans identified kids in her school are " attention seeking".

clear they should never be made to do anything they don't want to do.

Like strip off in front a male they don't know in an enclosed space?

And @Carlapig1 is holding up this male person as a feminist we should listen to. Civil words fail me.

There was another charmer TW who described woman as nothing more than dead eyes, open mouths and expectant arseholes, maybe we should listen to them too.

Great post, the only choice girls will have will be to put up and shut up or self exclude.

That's no choice.

Your child will be in situations they feel uncomfortable with
I think the situation where a girl or woman is using a changing room and a male person walks in and starts taking their clothes off and look at them is slightly more than 'feeling uncomfortable'.

and will meet some weird people in their life
Male people watching you undress is slightly more than just 'weird'.

and of course you need to talk to them and make it clear they should never be made to do anything they don't want to do.
So what is the solution for women and girls who don't want to do that? Situations I know in real life is change at home and don't use the changing room, use the toilets or stop playing sports/swimming etc.

Of course I believe in consent!
Choices are now consent to being looked at by male people and being flashed or stay away. Wow, what a choice.

In five years time governments will be publishing research that says girls don't play sports anymore and wondering why not....