Thank you: Debbie Hayton in the Mail

'I don't want to seem like an abused wife but I felt I had no power. I had to go along with it — or divorce.'

I don't mean to dismiss her experience at all, I know trans widows and families have an awful time. But divorce is the power they have. There are other situations too where women have no power - their H is cheating, gambling, doing drugs or whatever and it's the same - their choice is to go along with it or divorce. Divorce is totally reasonable. I wouldn't stay with a man who decided to announce he was a woman for a second. Not because I'm transphobic, but because I'd be bloody insulted, I'm a rational person and I couldn't be doing with someone pretending to share my experiences who simply can't. Just as if he decided to larp anything else about me, like my job, or an ethnicity or disability he didn't have. That would be it and I would consider that a totally reasonable grounds for divorce.

The idea that you should stick by a man who "comes out" as a "woman" needs to be totally dismantled.

If you don't buy that he's a woman, then you're dealing with a massively frustrating and insulting pretence.

If you do buy that he's a woman, well you didn't sign up to be with a woman, and if you're straight, it's no longer for you.

Of course stay if you actively want to, but either of the above are perfectly good reasons to end it IMO. I know it takes time and is not that simple because of kids, controlling behaviour etc (as can affect divorce in general, there are controlling narcs who aren't AGP too), but articles like this that big up that they're still together and best friends blah bah aren't helping.

If a woman wants to validate her husband's "true self" or whatever that doesn't require still being with him/his partner.

I fully admit that I have more to learn and that may be why I don't understand why so many of these women stay. Or is it that only some do and they're the couples that get all the media attention?

We can try.

Necrophiles are probably walking around saying they're undertakers, but that doesn't mean we should encourage them.

As Grayson Perry said, as soon as people knew what he was about, he lost the excitement.

The whole point was to boundary push and shock.

I do agree that would be very useful for women to know what they were getting into though, obviously.

Same.

I could never understand why he admitted he had AGP but people who know better than I said it's an escalation, and his ego makes him think he can contain it. And profit from it too.

Interestingly, the comments under the second article are now more sympathetic to Stephanie. And scathing of Debbie.

Not for the AGP, but for the selfishness.

(Plus, talking to male readers about having your cock cut off so now you don't have a sex life with your wife is never going to go down well. Maybe that's not something an autogynephile can fully appreciate).

So a turnabout, in one day, of below the line comments, brave and pitiful to selfish egotist.

I don't think destigmatising fetishes is the answer. What other fetishes would you have us destigmatise?

@TinselAngel

Cannot begin to imagine.

it would be helpful if AGP people were more “out” so that women don't find they married a lie, that fundamentally ruins ones life.

It takes a lot of coming to terms with.

@ArabellaScott yes i noticed that, there were a couple of articles and another excerpt from the book in the Mail yesterday, which I read at my mums. Seems Steph had firm boundaries with him but wanted to keep the marriage together, she also mentioned how self absorbed he was whilst transitioning.

From the second installment.

DH's wife is described as 'long-suffering'.

A quote from her:

'I don't want to seem like an abused wife but I felt I had no power. I had to go along with it — or divorce.'

@BonfireLady

What a useful link that you posted,

2 quote’s from a self confessed AGP i especially liked…

On trans ideology and the opportunities for AGP “the sweet sweet bliss of plugging into the Transgender Orgasmatron Matrix”

”I owe GC a huge debt for throwing cold water on my face”

I wish some posters would realise that we all have our own learning journeys, i am a critical person, so i will not just be told what to think, i value points of views, but especially information or links i might be after.

I think that people with AGP who acknowledge the darker recesses of male sexuality and their own narcissism is important. We need as a society to understand properly, what risk they pose (if any) to women and children, and how to assess such risks.

acedemic sources are useful of. Course but the horses mouth is also informative.

Who is the Portland sexologist who was involved with Tavistock? I want his book too but cannot recall his name or book title.

Whilst I do agree with everyone that discussing certain paraphilia in the public domain is a great help and anything that starts to wedge a crack in that door is good news. I would be incredibly suspicious of DHs motives here, the comments on that article were full of praise for Debbie and their bravery which is something that a person with that particular paraphilia will find very very attractive. So the truth will not likely to be part of the narrative as it might not generate the approval that feeds the ego. I would seriously doubt if that article or Debbie’s book will open many eyes about the condition and its murkier aspects either but as stated earlier it does get the ball rolling. As an aside I feel very very uncomfortable with the way Debbie’s wife is portrayed i want to hear from the women in the background and how their lives have been impacted by one persons sexual needs and how we as women can amplify their voices and learn from their stories.

One question we've stopped asking is 'where have all the transvestites gone?'

Is our goal to help women and children or is it to help men believe that they arent transvestites, but the feeling they have more profound?

Hayton serves one purpose from my perspective and it’s as an indicator for women that are peaking of whether they get it yet or not. If they still think or treat Hayton as anything other than a self serving male who uses women for his own gratification those women still have a way to go up those peaks.

I think we'd be better spending our time removing children from under the trans umbrella than attempting to unravel the truths and lies in the adult male narrative, and their desperate attempts to have us believe childrens modern day gender confusion is something they had, when it wouldnt have been possible.

The reason why trans children wasn't a thing 20 minutes ago is because most parents know that small children play and dress up with any toys and clothes that interest them. Its adults with an agender who try to find inner meaning.

Susie green put a lot of weight behind her son liking a mermaid toy, but what he liked about it wasnt that mermaids are female and he wanted to be female, but that it changed colour when wet. What child wouldnt want a toy that changed colour?

Likewise, i suspect men like hayton are scrambling in their brains looking for example from their childhood of always being AGP. They want AGP to be innate and thats what they will spend their energy writing about. All Hayton examples are unprovable and not that ground breaking. Did he really think 80 (or which ever number it was) sounded like tights? If so, is that really an indication of AGP in children? We could spend years analysing the musings of men like hayton but its not going to help children caught up in gender ideology today, and its certainly not helping women.

Obviously it would be beneficial for hayton and men like him to analyse his behaviour, but thats a private thing between him and a therapist.

Putting this here as well, in case it's useful to anyone.

https://archive.is/2pQIq

I don't remotely expect Debbie's book to go down to this level of detail but the more AGP gets discussed (by trans widows, psychologists, creators of gender dysphoria therapeutic frameworks, Debbie, Phil Illy, the writer of this essay etc), the closer we get to a picture of what it means being clearer in the public discourse. The key point being that those in charge of education, health and other laws and policies need to engage their critical thinking skills and watch out for truths, half-truths and sleight of hand whenever they are considering inputs. All inputs will have a bias of some kind.

There is so much harm being done in society as a result of AGP sliding under the radar and being "normalised" under the celebratory trans umbrella. The impact on adolescent boys and their parents, although very different, is just as important (for both the individual and society as a whole) as the impact on the transwidows and children.

(Side note: I've finally plucked up the courage to write out the acronym in these last couple of posts. Really hoping that I'm correct in thinking that things have changed in how it can be discussed on this board and that I'm still within whatever the guidelines are 🤞)

"'I do like my body,' she adds. 'I much prefer it now.' She is just shy of 6 ft in her size 9 ballet flats, with long, silver hair, clear skin, an imposing bosom and long legs."

Well I managed a couple of paragraphs but that's me out.

Some will develop a furtive interest in women’s underwear; usually that will be a phase.

The gender dysphoria therapy book that was written by the Tavistock whistleblowers Sue and Marcus Evans talks about something similar to the Oedipus complex in trans-identified males. I'm not a psychologist, and the chapter on males was heavy going by contrast to the rest of the book, but what came out very clearly was a desire to effectively become the mum in order to be loved by the mum. It can be related to trauma, grief or other exposure to significant early loss, overly strict enforcement of sex-based stereotypes ("no, boys don't play with that"), many different things. In the case where an boy grows up to become homosexual, it sounds like this won't lead to any "crossed wires" with their emerging sexual feelings but perhaps in boys who grow up to become heterosexual or bisexual it can? Especially so if there are inappropriate stimuli.
I'm not for a minute suggesting that AGP should be normalised or considered as a sexual orientation. Just that understanding the origins of its development are important so that therapeutic interventions can be created which stop the pathway if it is possible to do so. Obviously there will always be cases where it simply won't be possible, owing to significant mental health issues and/or narcissistic behavioural issues.

I think most boys begin to be sexually aware before puberty has clearly started. If they are exposed to sexual images, or groomed, that awareness may be accelerated. When puberty is definitely underway, boys typically become hyper aware of their sexual urges, and are very vulnerable to inappropriate stimuli including porn. Some will be highly embarrassed by any mention of their sexuality. Some will develop a furtive interest in women’s underwear; usually that will be a phase.

All this talk about psychology (or lack of knowledge thereof) reminds me of Posie saying "I'm not a vet but I know what a dog is."

They’re two completely different things. Childhood sexual development is bogstandard child psychology and a completely different subject to the perverted paedophilic mindset

If any lurkers are wondering about the history to mumsnetter's opinion of Debbie Hayton, this thread is fairly self-explanatory.

Page 3 is the bit about the boob hierarchy - which has to be one of life's spectacular coincidences.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4303993-posie-parker-s-latest-glasgow?page=2

I don’t see the two things are related.

Correct.

How would I know it’s upsetting for her? She’s voluntarily contributing to the discussion.

I wouldn’t necessarily assume that discussion of an adulterer in the public eye would be upsetting to a woman whose DH was unfaithful particularly if she’s contributing to it herself. I don’t see the two things are related.