First time poster - question about GC beliefs

Coherent yes.

In a simple sentence, it's sexist bullshit.

You cant live like a woman unless you are a woman.

You cant explain it in any other way that includes males that isn't full of sexism bullshit gender stereotypes which harm both sexes.

We need to stop perpetuating the idea that this concept is anything other than regressive and deeply offensive.

I agree with others that the idea of "living as a woman" is fraught. However, I do think it can be understood in a way that is coherent. We are social beings and in some ways who we are as social beings comes from how we are reflected on others. If we are an important elder in the community, we are treated differently than a child, and there are a number of things wrapped up in that - our age and generation (which is objective,) but also how other perceive and relate to us, and then also how we internalize that recognition and reflect it back.

So I understand "living as a woman" in this context to mean superficially taking on certain social markers conventionally associated with women, having others relate to us as if that were so, and internalizing that social "recognition".

I am tbh on the fence about this in a few ways, even in "legitimate" cases of dysphoria. I do not think it's possible to do this very convincingly while maintaining important sex distinctions, so I am skeptical of how useful it could be. But I also think it may ask too much of others. That being said, it is something that probably could be managed well enough for some, on a very limited basis, if they were carefully vetted people. Not including things like access to sex segregated spaces though.

I also am somewhat skeptical about the idea that everyone can dress how they feel most comfortable because that is ok. Clearly, to me, none of us do that. Even rock stars are out to break the boundaries are limited, they have to think about what they wear all the time! We all have to learn, as adults, that we sometimes have to wear things we don't love, and the thing is, it doesn't really matter, because they are just clothes. There will always be some kinds of "gender" conventions and in some roles breaking convention is not appropriate, and I don't think anyone needs to do so to be who they really are.

But my main issues are around the medical side. I think there is zero evidence that what is called "trans" in adults is much to do with kids, and I think most of what we see in kids is iatrogenic. I think the evidence that transition in adults is ever medically helpful is very poor. And I don't think adults are allowed to do whatever they want to modify their bodies, unless they do it themselves. Doctors are limited to (should be limited to) medical procedures that have a health benefit, it's part of their professional ethics. And IMO many common cosmetic surgeries don't make the grade, they offer only risk with no legitimate medical purpose.

I also don't think men with AGP should be given any help to transition. I have real sympathy for people with weird sexual fixations, more than a lot of people do. But I think indulging them is about the worst thing we can do for those people. It's not kind, at all, we are making their lives worse in the long term in many cases.

A really interesting thread. Agree with many of the points made.

Another rambly thought, about third spaces…

There seem to be two simultaneous but potentially contradictory arguments often used against them: 1) that they’d be outing for trans people, & 2) that most women are happy sharing their single-sex spaces with trans women anyway, to the the extent that those who express concern are bigots.

I recognise it’s more complex than this, but, in a sense, if 2) is the case…

…then, theoretically, a majority of women would be perfectly happy to forgo using any single-sex space retained for those who need it, in favour of the additional third space - to make a moral stand against „segregation“, in support of their „trans sisters“, or out of sheer indifference.

Which would make 1) a moot point.

It’s a simplistic way of looking at it - there are so many other issues at play (eg. third spaces‘ size, whether they’d be ring-fenced for trans people to the extent the disabled loos are for those who need them) - but it does show there’s scope for discussion even here.

And that such discussion is eschewed in favour of 1) & 2) above is a pity, if the key arguments against third spaces in favour of mixed-sex ones actually rely on an unspoken assumption about - recognition of - that what a majority of women themselves really want is the opposite of this: single-sex provision.

Women are disadvantaged because of the material reality of their sex, not because they ‘live like’ women. Living like women implies conforming to gender stereotypes, and if that was what held women back we’d expect to see far more butch lesbians on company boards, in parliament etc etc.

The disadvantages faced by women by virtue of their sex are systemic, global and longstanding. That’s why I place sex as central to my feminism. If a male person wants to pop on a frock and call himself Marjorie then on a very basic level I don’t personally have an objection. However, this increasingly doesn’t happen in isolation. It comes with demands, and often with claims of being as oppressed as ‘any other woman’. Such claims damage the foundations of any feminism centred around sex.

A bit rambly but it’s late. And I’m tired.

@lovelycosyslippers as a recent GC person all i can say it was not an easy journey for me. Because all of the lovely women here are not out to indoctrinate, which means i had to track down the things they referenced. And learn and understand what all the arguments are for being critical. i still am learning (and laughing) through all the debates.

Also some of the threads use code words and phrases some of which i still have not worked out but am getting there.

stick around make the effort to self teach, this is a great community very diverse `age, wealth, profession, sexuality, race, party politics, and also very clever and witty.

We are even polite to trans activists (but only because mumsnet HQ puts us on the naughty step if we do not)

Something I think needs more emphasis is: because there is no right not to be offended, there's lots of scope for men who identify as women to do things I find offensive, but which I nevertheless think shouldn't be forbidden. Dressing in a way reminiscent of an objectifying cartoon of a woman, with false breasts, garish makeup etc. is a good example. I don't have to be ok with it, even though I also don't think it would be right to ban it. I can, for example, allow it to lower my opinion of the person who does it. (Where things get a little delicate is, e.g., if this person is applying to me for a job - but that's why we have careful lists of essential and desirable criteria for jobs, etc.; there are lots of cases when we have to acknowledge that we dislike or disapprove of some aspect of an applicant but for a reason that isn't relevant to the application and therefore needs to be set aside.)

Who was it again who took Miranda, a TW, to court, putting Miranda through months if not years of stress before it got thrown out?

Can't quite remember.

Oh yes, it was Helen Islan, a senior member of staff at Mermaids.

I remember trying to square the genuine dysphoric/women’s rights circle, after a while I realised that transactivism/gender identity ideology is really very shit for the exact sort of transsexuals I imagined we were trying to accommodate:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6764763/amp/Britains-transgender-hate-crime-trial-halted-one-day.html

Wow my first deletion I assume for using the Malaga Airport word.

I’ve got a good friend who is religious. I’m atheist. She has her beliefs, I have mine. We know what the other thinks. We accept we have different paths. It’s ok.

I once knew a bloke who claimed he’d had alien encounters. I mean, I can’t even entertain the possibility that that’s genuine even though he seemed to believe it.

I worked with a kid who told us every morning someone appeared in the car at the side of him and his mum wouldn’t entertain the idea he might be having mental health issues because she believed in ghosts and she thought it was true 🤷‍♀️

People believe all sorts of things, other people don’t. There’s only trans ideology where there’s a huge drive to make everyone believe the same thing no matter how impossible it is, with threats and sometimes violence.

Why do you think that is?

There are a handful of male transsexuals who behave the way you describe, OP - ‘transitioned’ as far as is possible (ie penectomy & castration), use feminine names but stay out of female-only spaces, wear what they like and don’t insist on wrong-sex pronouns…

The shit they get from transactivists is at least as bad anything us terfs get, perhaps worse. They are called ‘Uncle Toms’ ‘Traitors’ ‘Pick Mes’ ‘Scabs’ ‘Quislings’ etc.

(Miranda has already been mentioned upthread, Miranda was literally taken to court for ‘transphobia’, despite Miranda being a post op transsexual (and a thoroughly decent bloke, as it happens).

To quote JK Rowling:

"Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?"

Great thread.

I have nothing to add that hasn't been said but just wanted to acknowledge all the excellent comments on here: yes, everyone has the right to believe that that have a gender identity, but not the right (thankfully now underpinned in law) to coerce others to believe or express that they do. Anyone who believes that they have a gender identity and suffers from a feeling of distress in relation to this deserves evidence-based help to unpick why they feel this way.
But it's also important to recognise that a significant number of men feign that they have a belief in gender identity in order to satisfy their fetish.

Thankfully the harms that are being done to children through their confusion about this (sometimes still enforced) belief, particularly during puberty, are being recognised by a growing number of politicians and policy makers.

I hope that other newbies stumble across the thread because I think there is a lot of useful thinking and explanation in here.

@RapidOnsetGenderCritic your comment struck a chord with me. We have managed to stop short of this stage so far but it does sometimes feel still like it could head that way. I hope that what is happening in the public discourse will shift quickly enough for your son. Vulnerable children and young people are still caught up in an awful mess ATM 😔

a) We can't be arsed
b) It wouldn't give (most of us) a sexual thrill

"If an individual did these things, but stopped short of entering single sex only spaces or competing in single sex sports, for example - would that be ok to a GC feminist?"

YES! None of those things effect other's around them, so 100% fine by me.
the second you start imposing on other's it becomes a massive issue imo, because then it's a case of one person's feelings trumping the other's right to privacy and dignity.

When we have "Trans Women" filming TikTok's of themselves going "Omg ew where does this even go?!!!" " Ew look at ittttt, how does this even worrrrrrk, omg I can't wait to get my perioddddd!" whilst holding Tampons and acting disgusted while also fascinated, or claiming that they're getting period cramps, that affects our dignity as women - And when you're doing that and then entering our spaces where we could be having an especially heavy bleed, or god forbid a miscarriage. Women do SO much more in bathrooms than men do, and the very fact that they don't understand this is evidence in my mind that they probably should have their own spaces.

Helen Joyce's book 'trans' is only a tenner on Amazon. Worth it's weight in gold.

And for anyone who thinks 'why not third spaces? Surely that would solve everything', please google 'Mumsnet Third Spaces' and see how often it has been suggested and shot down in flames as transphobic and othering by the TRA's who like to come here to scold women for daring to talk about this.

You may find a petition from a few years ago, there are a few honourable transwomen who know they're male who do want this. One is Miranda Yardley - notable also for having a ridiculous case brought against him (and rapidly thrown out of court) for... transphobia.

Great posts. And for anyone who thinks 'why not third spaces? Surely that would solve everything', please google 'Mumsnet Third Spaces' and see how often it has been suggested and shot down in flames as transphobic and othering by the TRA's who like to come here to scold women for daring to talk about this.

You come to realise that there is no compromise or reasonable work around or balancing of needs. Complete and utter capitulation by women is the only acceptable solution, it seems.

If you don't agree that being male or female is what makes you fall under the description of man or woman, then what does? Is there a single criterion that differentiates between men and women under this ideology? Because literally no-one can ever name one.

Actually, there was a TW on here who (I assume genuinely? ) answered questions and stated that nearly all women have one type of sort of "feminine" personality, and men another type of personality. Because this person felt more feminine and unlike the men they saw growing up, that was proof they were actually a woman.

Yes, if a pub pretends cheap cola is Coca Cola or RandonRussianishWord vodka is Smirnoff it’s known as ‘passing off’

https://www.claims.co.uk/knowledge-base/intellectual-property/passing-off#:~:text=Passing%20off%20takes%20place%20when,of%20person%20from%20other%20traders.

Because there is no sexual aspect to women identifying as men, and because women of a certain age are too old and wise to fall for the idea that you can simply identify out of female oppression and into male privilege.

Hi OP
As others have posted, the mythical, mission creep trans / dysphoric foot in the door has a lot to answer for.
In addition to the problems with men being admitted to single sex female specific prisons, rape crisis and refuges, there’s also the experience of the trans widow to consider.
Many men are middle aged transitioners, married with children who “come out” to their partner who is then supposed to put her life to one side in favour of supporting her ‘brave’ husband.

You can read more on their website https://www.transwidowsvoices.org/ and also the long running support thread on Mumsnet https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/4879982-trans-widows-escape-committee-6-the-next-generation
What these women have been through and are going through is appalling. It is often an abusive relationship, with a controlling male partner.

Another thing that gets glossed over by the be-kinds is that if you think you are a man or a woman because of the type of feelings/brain/ personality you have, you completely change the definition of gay/ straight. Even Stonewall will no longer say that being gay means being attracted to the same sex.

I don’t believe it’s possible to be born with a gender identity that doesn’t match with your sex.

I accept that some people do believe that they have a female brain in a male body (and vice versa) but that seems incredibly sexist to me (wtf is a female brain? A pink one? 😬)

I am not convinced that helping those people change their bodies to look more like bodies of the opposite sex is actually good for them (suicide is more likely post-transition, not pre) but I accept that in a liberal society not everything we do has to be good for us.

I am horrified at the doctors who enable medical self harm and believe that in years to come transing people’s bodies (especially children and teens) will be seen as outdated and as barbaric as lobotomy.

Ultimately, men can dress as they choose and call themselves whatever they like, but they should never be allowed to use their personality or dress sense as an excuse to trespass on female only spaces, services and sports.

Ultimately, I’m a gender atheist. I don’t really care if some people wear funny outfits and chant nonsensical things, but I would prefer religious ideology to be kept out of schools, including Gender Identity Ideology.

(I have a much loved teen in my own household who currently IDs as the opposite sex, well, a strange, cartoonish version of the opposite sex. The same teen has a number of other comorbid conditions including a terrifyingly restrictive eating disorder that manifests using the trappings of gender, ie boobs are fatty tissue so not eating = no boobs and low body weight = no periods, which is supposedly fine because ‘I’m a boy’. It’s heartbreaking and no teacher or school counsellor is willing to look past the gender woo woo and see the obvious self harm. Thankfully trans is starting to fall out of fashion within the friendship group with several now desisting, so I suspect it will be over as soon as 6th form college is in June)