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Original poster

Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 3

993 replies

ickky · 11/10/2023 10:41

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

You may attend in person or remote viewing has been quite limited but you can request log in details from

Email [email protected]

Header should read

URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

Ask for access link and pin and please give your name and address in the email as they check when you connect to the tribunal.

Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 2 | Mumsnet

Abbreviations JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C) OU - The Open University, Respondent (R) J - Regional Employment Judge Young P - Panel or panel memb...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
chilling19 · 12/10/2023 15:08

That up talking is annoying

Original poster
ickky · 12/10/2023 15:08

Some guidance that was circulated around the dept.

I wonder who made that guidance????

OP posts:
pronounsbundlebundle · 12/10/2023 15:07

Bingo! Does not remember (something incriminating)

Mmmnotsure · 12/10/2023 15:07

LD tries for another quasi-academic spiel.

BC: I'm not going to be focusing on your thoughts, but on your actions - what you were trying to do to other people.

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 12/10/2023 15:07

This witness really has a hard time listening to the question and answering it as asked, and not veering off into speeches.

LarkLane · 12/10/2023 15:06

The Judge and panel will never ever unsee this thinking for the rest of their lives.

chilling19 · 12/10/2023 15:06

Ben - trying to keep his incredulity in check here.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/10/2023 15:05

There's no point trying to redo Forstater. The view is protected, whatever she thinks.

pronounsbundlebundle · 12/10/2023 15:05

The Judge is wondering whether she is in the legal profession or is now teaching pre-schoolers.

Judge: Let me ask you this really basic, easily comprehensible question
DD: It's really tricky / it's a really difficult question.

Rest of the world: No it's fucking not! Mammals have only had two sexes - which matter for lots of things including reproduction, harm and death - for millions of years! It is important to be able to describe this. Yes, delusional people may wish to deny it but they should not have the right to force that on anyone else!

Bit fed up with the baseline of science denial going on in the OU. Flat earth next?

Mmmnotsure · 12/10/2023 15:05

LD: GC is a fixed idea not allowing for debate

chilling19 · 12/10/2023 15:04

Witness - keeps going.

GCITC · 12/10/2023 15:04

Judge asking whether downes finds it objectionable for GC to express that sex and gender are different.

Downes finds it a difficult subject. Sex isn't a natural or nature blank slate, but gender is also shaping sex, so the idea that they can be separated....

Judge - but its not just that... GC position that sex more important than gender, you've not answered that

LD - Because its a difficult question. Goes on about legal sex, not just biological sex etc etc

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/10/2023 15:04

It's all just the normal pseudo intellectual waffle.

CriticalCondition · 12/10/2023 15:04

BC knows the judge has got the point.

LarkLane · 12/10/2023 15:04

My training? You train dogs
Adult human beings deserve Education.

Although Educate Yourself is an insult from these people.

Gabcsika · 12/10/2023 15:03

chilling19 · 12/10/2023 15:02

Oh judge jumps in with a big sigh. Ooh, 'my training'. What is the witness talking about?

When we see "training" we know they mean "indoctrination".

Chrysanthemum5 · 12/10/2023 15:03

BC moving on as I think he feels he's shown how batshit this is

CriticalCondition · 12/10/2023 15:03

Still not answering the question....

Original poster
ickky · 12/10/2023 15:03

I am none the wiser after this explanation to the judge.

OP posts:
Mmmnotsure · 12/10/2023 15:03

J: The prioritisation of sex over gender. Not answered.

LD: It's a very difficult q. It's complicated [house]

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 12/10/2023 15:03

Judge asks on the separation of sex v gender showing an understanding of the two positions:

LD "It's a very difficult question!"

Chrysanthemum5 · 12/10/2023 15:03

DD saying this is a very difficult question when asked to explain what she believes. Something about us being empty vessels that can be filled

JoIsBraverThanIAm · 12/10/2023 15:02

I am about to go into an in person meeting and so am missing all this - please keep reporting!

chilling19 · 12/10/2023 15:02

Oh judge jumps in with a big sigh. Ooh, 'my training'. What is the witness talking about?

Chrysanthemum5 · 12/10/2023 15:02

I think the Judge is genuinely trying to understand what on earth this witness thinks

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