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Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 3

993 replies

ickky · 11/10/2023 10:41

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

You may attend in person or remote viewing has been quite limited but you can request log in details from

Email [email protected]

Header should read

URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

Ask for access link and pin and please give your name and address in the email as they check when you connect to the tribunal.

Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 2 | Mumsnet

Abbreviations JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C) OU - The Open University, Respondent (R) J - Regional Employment Judge Young P - Panel or panel memb...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
Melissamelisante · 11/10/2023 15:41

How he remains sounding so patient is beyond me.

CriticalCondition · 11/10/2023 15:39

MW .- it involved everybody in the network
BC- right, that was 6 people at the time

Mmmnotsure · 11/10/2023 15:38

MW: this is about the network, not the people.

BC: You are saying this isn't discrimination cos directed at the network and the letter doesn't mention the people in the GCRN by name. Have we really reached that point in our discussion? Is that what makes the difference between improper and fine?

MW: It's asking for the removal of the network.

BC: That would have involved the six people in the OU who formed the network.

MW: Yes

Sisterpita · 11/10/2023 15:37

Ah so BC is trying to show the OU did not take action against the signatories to the open letter even though they were being discriminatory and so had stepped over the “line”. This is the point where the OU should have taken action as per its policies and didn’t.

CriticalCondition · 11/10/2023 15:37

BC - so are you saying as per JM it's not discrim because it refers to the network and doesn't name JP??

LarkLane · 11/10/2023 15:36

Another wriggling worm on the hook.

Mmmnotsure · 11/10/2023 15:35

J doesn't want qs arising from hypotheticals.

AutumnCrow · 11/10/2023 15:35

This is familiar territory for many academic women.

'Well, you chose to be controversial / to rock the boat / to leave.'

CriticalCondition · 11/10/2023 15:35

MW- I struggle with 'over the line'. BC - do you agree there is a line?

Mmmnotsure · 11/10/2023 15:33

BC: This was group letter relying on numbers to pressure OU to act against GCRN cos of their beliefs?

MW: I would broadly agree

BC: That is over the line, to put pressure on employer to discriminate.

MW: I'm not comfortable when you talk c discrimination

CriticalCondition · 11/10/2023 15:32

BC- if ou had ejected GCRN wd you agree that wd have been less favourable treatment? MW- It was differential treatment.

Mmmnotsure · 11/10/2023 15:31

BC: People believed GCRN was largely about transphobia.

BC: Do you agree GC views not transphobic

MW: Yes

BC: Not giving GCRN an OU home because of objections to its beliefs would be direct discrimination.

MW: How are you defining DDiscrim?

BC: Treating a person differently because of their protected beliefs.

MW: GCRN continued to be housed in the OU

BC: Not my q

CriticalCondition · 11/10/2023 15:30

MW - it was a widely held belief that the GCRN was transphobic. That's not my belief because I've talked to JP.

Madcats · 11/10/2023 15:29

ickky · 11/10/2023 14:22

She has a lovely friendly face. Who would play her?

I'm desperately trying to catch up here (so apologies if the scasting is already decided). Can I nominate Nina Sosanya
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0815317/

Nina Sosanya | Actress, Director, Soundtrack

Known for: Love Actually, Five Days, Nathan Barley

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0815317

Mmmnotsure · 11/10/2023 15:26

BC with MW - as if to a little child

SaffronSpice · 11/10/2023 15:25

SidewaysOtter · 11/10/2023 15:06

It’s amazing how many witnesses heard a bit of the podcast but not all, and were only told about its “problematic” nature by other people, isn’t it?

Show quote history

“Heard”

CriticalCondition · 11/10/2023 15:23

SidewaysOtter · 11/10/2023 15:06

It’s amazing how many witnesses heard a bit of the podcast but not all, and were only told about its “problematic” nature by other people, isn’t it?

Show quote history

Yes, the 'objectionable' comments are all made at about the 60 minute mark, about 15 mins from the end, and not by Jo.

Mmmnotsure · 11/10/2023 15:20

WhineyVaginey · 11/10/2023 15:09

Can anyone explain to me why JM objected to Ben's question being hypothetical? am following TT but finding it hard to understand the objection

I think she was trying to shut him down.

If I remember rightly he was starting to make this a wider concept, including the balancing of rights between different views/groups of people generally - and if you start doing that it becomes very clear that one group's insistence on their rights can damage the rights of another group and that both sets of rights have to stand and be accommodated (regardless of the fact that one side is shouting louder and making threats).

IcakethereforeIam · 11/10/2023 15:14

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 11/10/2023 15:06

To be fair, it was discussing previous examples of tensions between groups of OU people, and not a comparison to the current situation.

Show quote history

Bet they feel silly nowShock

OP posts:
WhineyVaginey · 11/10/2023 15:09

Can anyone explain to me why JM objected to Ben's question being hypothetical? am following TT but finding it hard to understand the objection

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 11/10/2023 15:06

TheresaOfAvila · 11/10/2023 15:02

Israel-Palestine is a lower profile controversy involving smaller numbers.

Wow! On so many fronts.

Show quote history

To be fair, it was discussing previous examples of tensions between groups of OU people, and not a comparison to the current situation.

Ameanstreakamilewide · 11/10/2023 15:06

Like Mermaids and the Cass Report.

SidewaysOtter · 11/10/2023 15:06

CriticalCondition · 11/10/2023 14:33

MW found the SMinds podcast interesting but didn't listen to the whole thing, maybe 30-40mins of the whole 60. Not to the end.

It’s amazing how many witnesses heard a bit of the podcast but not all, and were only told about its “problematic” nature by other people, isn’t it?

TheresaOfAvila · 11/10/2023 15:02

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 11/10/2023 14:09

We're back for panel questions - Judge has asked whether working groups were set up for other examples of controversy (Turkish/Cypriot, Palestine/Israel). IF says no because these were lower profile controversies involving smaller numbers.

Israel-Palestine is a lower profile controversy involving smaller numbers.

Wow! On so many fronts.

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