Is it even possible to debate the trans-narrative outside MN?

I’m on a usually very kind supportive group (99% female, very small minority dads, one loud trans woman) linked to my job which has totally blown up because of a trans post in the last few days. Given it’s science based I was astounded by the number who said TWAW (was about single sex hospital wards). Anyone that posted a GC view got rounded on. I would be amazed if the vast majority of that group are not fairly GC but too scared to speak up. I could see how it was going and declined to get involved.

Sorry for tangential posts. Just wanted to offer a more complete picture of some of the views on babies and toddlers being 'trans'.

Diane Ehrensaft - Developmental/clinical psychologist; Director of Mental Health, Child & Adolescent Gender Center, Associate Professor of Pediatrics, UCSF - has some unconvential views.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4489277-Video-Series-Diane-Ehrensaft-and-Satanic-Panic

Yeah my son was born with a willy but couldn't wait to get into his fishnets and a leather mini

Here's the one I was looking for:

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''At what age can a child first begin to transition into another gender or identify themselves as a gender different from how they were born?'

'Yeah, well, I mean, there's there's research and data that show that babies and infants understand differences in gender. Some children figure out their gender
really early, and the reason why we are - say - oh, that's interesting or important is because they're figuring out their gender identity is not necessarily congruent
with their sex assigned at birth'

Do watch the whole thing if you'd like to hear the doctor's views on chickens' gender identities.

I would never want to be associated with that vicious gossip rag, like most socialists; but they're the only paper open to a full debate.

It’s the “mob on here” as you call it that have been the ones pushing back. I firmly believe that without women in here supporting crowd funding for court cases, raising issues with schools, employers & public bodies, writing to MPs & generally refusing to give in to the threats made against us by TRA, self ID would be law & our rights to single sex spaces would be gone.

but yeah “a mob”

I have a vague memory of a blue haired woman talking about toddlers pulling barrettes out of their hair.

No that is just emotional manipulation, abuse and coercion.

But does that equate with the "better a daughter than a dead son" narrative which I find so hard to believe

Plus theybies exist and are valid.

My brother said he 'felt like he was a girl since he was about 7'.

This, of course, is nothing to do with the fact that my mother CONSTANTLY used to say that she thought that we were 'born the wrong way round' because of what toys we liked to play with and our personalities. It was an issue for me for a long time and I was the elder one. The pressure my parents put on my brother was considerably more. My dad worked away but changed jobs because they felt 'he was suffering from a lack of male role models'. He was also shit at sport and this wasn't taken well. There were numerous attempts to get him into sport (no such equivalent for me).

Basically they were sexist and were terrified he'd be gay.

I grew up in this bubble. I saw it from the inside. I KNOW it's a real thing.

And I do think there's even stronger pressures with the whole accepting of non-conformity and desires to be a sparkly family than 30 years ago.

Social contagion and parental pressure is a MASSIVE thing. Much more than I think many are willing to believe. But ask a primary teacher if they could match kids with parents from behaviour alone and they'd probably have a bloody good idea.

To be fair, that paediatrician in the US did claim that pre-verbal children could 'signal' their gender identity by pulling barrettes out of their hair or ... unpopping a onesie, was it? I'll go and find the reference.

Much as I agree strongly with the need to approach trans rights with women's rights at equal billing, I find much of the discussion on this board like something out of the daily mail, and I am very uncomfortable with that. The way people laid into Mary beard for having a different opinion to the mob on here was ugly.

Thank you @RedToothBrush

i can only assume that Speen doesn’t really appreciate the implication of what they’re saying

'Vegan cats' don't decide to go vegan.

Neither do babies.

Transitioning babies are humans that have been willfully abused by their parents and the adults that facilitate it, because they lack the capacity and understanding to consent to transitioning.

Just so we clear this up.

"Transitioned at birth" is my new favourite example of utter incoherence. Thanks speen for your contributions !

Even the more extreme parents wait until the child is old enough to ask when the good fairy is going to come and change their penis into a vagina.🙄

'For me the greatest horror produced by the genderist movement is the extent to which physically healthy young women are being encouraged to drug and mutilate themselves in pursuit of something illusory.'

That's a good point Dean.

Anyone old enough to remember the general horror at the damage that was done to female East German athletes will be utterly perplexed at the celebration of the same damage being done to this cohort of vulnerable young women. Then you have to consider the further damage to the current cohort due to surgery. Phalloplasty has the most awful complication rates. All this is meant to help a person's mental state?

If you have someone with a fragile mental state, how does increasing their chances of (for example) incontinence, help?

Well done for not giving a crap. May I ask what age?

Trying to explain reality to fuckwits?
I think it's fine 😊

A group of us started a discussion at my child's school about what they are teaching them re these issues. It took a LOT of messaging the SLT and the board to get full disclosure.

We now have a group of parents willing to discuss, but within this group there are distinct smaller groups:

Those who just want to know what their kids are being taught so they can clear up any confusion as to scientific fact.

Those who don't want their kids to know anything at all about their bodies or sex.

Those who are a little bit bigoted or religious and seem frankly, scared of the world and any difference from themselves.

It's not been easy. But I now know what my kids are learning and where I feel they might need a bit of clarification.

We have been branded as bigots by some people I think. And troublemakers. But I really couldn't give a crap.

Keep talking in the real world. We don't all agree. But that's ok. Keep talking to each other!

We have been told firmly by so many posters even this week that to discuss this is very transphobic.

This false accusation of hate has shut down so many discussions, not on MN however. That frustrates many!

@Farmageddon How far is society supposed to go to indulge a persons delusion?

This question should be debated on all platforms