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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

MPs who believe ‘women have a penis’ will be named and shamed ahead of general election

495 replies

fromorbit · 24/09/2023 09:53

Brilliant plan sure plenty of Mumsnetters will be up for being part of the volunteer army asking questions:

An “army” of volunteers in an apolitical new grassroots campaign is gearing up to meet all MPs and parliamentary candidates at hustings events and on their doorsteps to ask each one the question: “What is a woman?”

Their answers will be video recorded and uploaded individually to a website which is being launched in the coming months.

It will allow voters to find out instantly whether their next MP thinks women must be born female and that binary biological sex cannot be changed, or whether they believe that male-born transgender women are women too.

Sharron Davies MBE, the former Olympic swimmer and feminist campaigner who has been appointed as the campaign’s first ambassador, said it would let voters “know if their MP will stand up for women”.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/23/mps-believe-women-penis-named-trans-election-sharron-davies/

We also need a women's issues hustings in every constituency in the election run by people who know what women are. Women Won't Wheesht (WWW) have already run the prototype in Rutherglen [the hustings was reinstated after an attempt to cancel it after they realised banning women's meetings is in fact illegal.]
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4899435-womens-group-hustings-for-rutherglen-hamilton-west-byelection-cancelled

MPs who believe ‘women have a penis’ will be named and shamed ahead of general election

A new website will allow voters to instantly find out whether their MP thinks women must be born female

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/23/mps-believe-women-penis-named-trans-election-sharron-davies

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
PaperWalkAndTalk · 28/09/2023 17:43

This thread seems to be "gender criticism can be left wing, but you are all right wing because you're gender critical".

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 17:43

MargotBamborough · 28/09/2023 16:17

Why do you think Labour will implement policies that benefit women?

You can't protect what you refuse to even acknowledge or name.

Because they have policies ike this:
https://labour.org.uk/ending-violence-against-women-and-girls/

And this :https://www.ft.com/content/44d4b4ba-7b77-41fb-a354-0f2f84475b7d

And this:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/03/labours-wes-streeting-launches-review-to-plan-for-national-care-service

All things that are going to make things better for women.

The Conservatives have "we know what a woman is". Well duh. Well done. They back that up with a track record of effectively decriminalising rape, more women leaving work and falling into poverty because of caring commitments they can't meet any other way (no carers/too expensive), etc etc. Oh, and Suella Braverman will stop women claiming asylum on the basis of persecution from their misogynist countries because "multiculturalism has failed".

My judgement is women would be better served by a Labour government.

Ending Violence Against Women and Girls

Labour has published a Green Paper on how to end the epidemic of violence against women and girls. We want to hear your views.

https://labour.org.uk/ending-violence-against-women-and-girls

Cailleach1 · 28/09/2023 17:38

Just to clarify, I'm not equating voting Conservative with the accusation of Lyndon Johnson's manager.

Cailleach1 · 28/09/2023 17:33

I think the 'j'accuse' of everyone voting Conservative is a little ploy. Rather like Lyndon Johnson's campaign manager who wanted to accuse Lyndon's opponent of something (I won't say what).

After Lyndon said 'we can't say that 'cos it's not true', the manager responded 'Of course not, but let's make the B*stard deny it'.

Cailleach1 · 28/09/2023 17:26

What a load of baloney, @AdamRyan .

What is gender, but made up poppycock which doesn't define anything without 'socio' before it. Biological sex on the other hand is real.

Laughing about the camps of credulous ideological, boll*xology adherents, or traditional religious conservatives.

A simple 'this is anti-reality and anti-science' is good enough.

Very good post from Margo. Wasn't surprised at the 'Yeah, yeah, BUT..' response. Put me in mind of 'Little Britain'.

Very well done to whoever is making it public which potential political candidates are ok with pushing or supporting this fiction. Those who have no concern with the potential damage to, and limiting of the lives of women and children.

I'm thinking of the woman battered by a man who was admitted to a women's hostel in Ireland. A man who punched her in the face (with his 160% stronger male punch on her thin skull). It is my opinion that the Irish politicians who pushed that through in Ireland created the situation where that man was able to access that woman in that hostel and beat the crap out of her. I think it was around a 89% male parliament in Ireland at that time. Not that I think many female politicians put their head above the parapet to push for the better treatment of women. Or, at the very least not to create oppressive or dangerous situations for women (and children).

IcakethereforeIam · 28/09/2023 17:18

My favourite colour is blue though😳

EasternStandard · 28/09/2023 17:17

So now we don’t need the services of the one poster who thinks they’re saving us from a conservative voting echo chamber

Maybe they’ll be relieved and not bother

IcakethereforeIam · 28/09/2023 17:08

I'm a person who would rather vote Labour, I'd vote for Corbyn! My constituency is marginal between LibDem and Cons. I have no idea what my MP thinks on this issue, they never answered my emails and it was starting to feel embarrassing. So I hope they answer the question. And the candidates put up by the other parties, I want to know their answers. Otherwise I'm left hoping the SDP or the Commies run for the seat.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 28/09/2023 17:00

It's extremely boring and at this point I'm literally only posting otherwise this is just a Conservative voting echo chamber.

This is exactly the deliberately inflammatory behaviour that led me to ask if you were working for the Conservative party.

Do you honestly not grasp why? You are so ludicrously patronising and insulting, that I can't believe you could lack self-awareness of it. The only interpretation left is that you are adopting a false persona in order to alienate prospective Labour voters.

teawamutu · 28/09/2023 16:53

Floisme · 28/09/2023 16:35

Excuse me AdamRyan.

I post on this board and have posted on this thread. I am not a Conservative voter. I have voted Labour my entire adult life, even in 2019. I don't know how I will vote next time.

There are many posters like me who nevertheless enjoy amicable conversations with Tory voters.

The idea that you are some kind of lone voice is comical and also says a lot about how much attention you pay to other posts.

I welcome this initiative. As far as I'm concerned if it shows Labour candidates in a bad light then that is Labour's fault and no-one else's.

Precisely. If the answers make Labour look stupid, credulous or anti-woman, then that's their problem to address, not ours to avoid by not asking the question.

FYI, Adam, I voted Labour until 2019 and have abstained or voted independent since. I will vote Conservative with a very heavy heart if ever I'm driven to it, but I haven't yet. Thinking Labour have been appalling twats on this issue and owe women a MASSIVE apology does not a Tory shill make, thank you.

Waitwhat23 · 28/09/2023 16:52

I'm definitely not a Tory voter. Voted SNP before they fucked it all up. Various parties in Scotland are absolutely heinous for a number of reasons and the smaller parties (Alba/ISP etc) either have their own issues or are too small to ever make a dent in the votes.

As I've said before, I'm politically homeless. Had to spoil my last couple of votes.

I'd be surprised if more than a couple of posters on this board vote Tory and I'm guessing out of those, at least a few do with a sense of holding their nose.

IwantToRetire · 28/09/2023 16:51

Have to say I have given up reading this thread as it has been hijacked by one individual who thinks we are all so stupid we would dumbly follow a secretly conservative funded single issue campaign.

Why is any one bothering to respond? Most of all of this have been said on any number of threads about being politically homeless.

There is no evidence it is conservative funded, it is a cross party initiative.

It is a single issue campaign, no different from say a campaign that says people of different races should all be paid equally for the same work.

And finally, even if many on FWR are invested in knowing the answers MPs will give, 99.9% of the electorate wont care.

This is like those threads about KJK where totally fantasies are posted usually making reference to right wing fundamentalists and / or nazis. And every response gives the individuals the opportunity to respond saying the same thing over and over again.

The purpose being that in terms of the internet and search engines etc., is that (because they are only basically counting machines) they will add up all the references to this being a tory plot that dim wit karens on mumsnet have fallen for, in the same way it they tot up all the references to KJK linked to right wing / nazi.

Dont give them the oxygen to inflate their false flags.

Or perhaps we can have another thread where we just monitor how this campaign spans out.

This is all whatabouterry

MargotBamborough · 28/09/2023 16:51

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 16:23

I know all of that. But the fact is I've been subject to numerous pile ons, on this board, for stating things like:

  • Kemi Badenoch is not a feminist
  • KJK is not a feminist
  • Suella Braverman is populist and scary
  • Muslim men are not more of an issue than men generally
  • men can currently legally be recognised as women
  • I don't want to listen to Jordan Peterson
  • "free speech" proponents are often right wing
  • I think that the rape and violence statistics in this country are terrifying
  • I trust Starmer more than Johnson/Truss/Sunak

These are views I cannot square with posters being feminist and supporting women. They are views I can square with posters being right wing and posting on the board because they agree with the broader views of defining women on the basis of their biology.

Some of these things seem pretty uncontroversial. KJK has stated many times that she does not consider herself a feminist. She's entitled to reject that terminology if she wishes; she's still fighting for women's rights.

It's also not really a matter of debate that men can currently legally "become women" even if they cannot become women in any meaningful sense.

But some things on your list are matters of opinion, nothing more.

When you act as though the only reason you can think of why people should vote for you is that the Tories are the nasty party (which is a fundamental feature of Labour Party campaigning), you need to make damn sure you are not being nasty to women. Otherwise you're just a bunch of hypocrites, aren't you?

Yes, we get it, the Tories are nasty. So are you though. What's your excuse?

Like I said before, if you say there is such a thing as a female penis, the amount I will trust you is zero. So it's not mathematically possible for me to trust the Tories LESS than Starmer.

EasternStandard · 28/09/2023 16:42

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 16:40

I would suggest that there are more than one posting on this thread who fit the description of 'non-conservative' voters.

Yep totally!

ArabeIIaScott · 28/09/2023 16:41

this is just a Conservative voting echo chamber.

😂

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 16:40

EasternStandard · 28/09/2023 16:36

I was going to say I’m pretty sure there are non Conservative posters on here

I’m glad you did as I couldn’t recall who

I would suggest that there are more than one posting on this thread who fit the description of 'non-conservative' voters.

LondonLass91 · 28/09/2023 16:39

Floisme · 28/09/2023 16:35

Excuse me AdamRyan.

I post on this board and have posted on this thread. I am not a Conservative voter. I have voted Labour my entire adult life, even in 2019. I don't know how I will vote next time.

There are many posters like me who nevertheless enjoy amicable conversations with Tory voters.

The idea that you are some kind of lone voice is comical and also says a lot about how much attention you pay to other posts.

I welcome this initiative. As far as I'm concerned if it shows Labour candidates in a bad light then that is Labour's fault and no-one else's.

I agree with this - I'm typically right of centre, definitely more conservative than Labour generally, yet feel exactly the same on this issue as my very left wing relatives from North Yorkshire x

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 16:38

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 16:30

I don't need to come up with a question because I'm not running the campaign, I'm not involved with politics and I'm very happy with my own voting intention in my constituency with my dickhead MP.

Happy to hear your thoughts on a question. I'm actually going to be quite interested if this even gets off the ground. My money is on it being a damp squib.

So you want to not shape this campaign to be stronger than you believe it is now, you simply want it to go away. Can I ask why you are so invested in this thread ? I mean, you are free to post wherever and whenever and whatever you want. But this thread seems to be going in diminishing circles, yet many of us want to discuss it and who knows, we may even get involved.

EasternStandard · 28/09/2023 16:36

Floisme · 28/09/2023 16:35

Excuse me AdamRyan.

I post on this board and have posted on this thread. I am not a Conservative voter. I have voted Labour my entire adult life, even in 2019. I don't know how I will vote next time.

There are many posters like me who nevertheless enjoy amicable conversations with Tory voters.

The idea that you are some kind of lone voice is comical and also says a lot about how much attention you pay to other posts.

I welcome this initiative. As far as I'm concerned if it shows Labour candidates in a bad light then that is Labour's fault and no-one else's.

I was going to say I’m pretty sure there are non Conservative posters on here

I’m glad you did as I couldn’t recall who

Floisme · 28/09/2023 16:35

Excuse me AdamRyan.

I post on this board and have posted on this thread. I am not a Conservative voter. I have voted Labour my entire adult life, even in 2019. I don't know how I will vote next time.

There are many posters like me who nevertheless enjoy amicable conversations with Tory voters.

The idea that you are some kind of lone voice is comical and also says a lot about how much attention you pay to other posts.

I welcome this initiative. As far as I'm concerned if it shows Labour candidates in a bad light then that is Labour's fault and no-one else's.

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 16:30

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 16:23

As I asked you before adamryan, what question could be asked that would give a clear and definitive answer. I have already suggested that 'What is a woman' will allow for ambiguity and will need a follow up question about whether any male can be considered a woman, worded however it needs to be.

So where does that leave us?

It leaves us discussing what the best question is so that this opportunity is most useful to voters who want to have those answers. If you, personally, don't want the answers then that discussion is not really relevant to you.

I don't need to come up with a question because I'm not running the campaign, I'm not involved with politics and I'm very happy with my own voting intention in my constituency with my dickhead MP.

Happy to hear your thoughts on a question. I'm actually going to be quite interested if this even gets off the ground. My money is on it being a damp squib.

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 16:27

PaperWalkAndTalk · 28/09/2023 14:42

Well that's being called three things.

"If you don't agree with me, you are":

  • Labour supporter
  • Believe TWAW.
  • A trans rights activist.

Not sure why you have a problem in being called a TWAW believer if you support gender ideology?

And this is exactly my point.

I DON'T SUPPORT GENDER IDEOLOGY.

I never have, I never will and I'm getting very annoyed with posters like you saying I do because I don't vote conservative. And then telling me my position is "the same old "if you don't agree with me you are far-right" argument".

It's ultimate DARVO.
I haven't accused anyone of being far right.
I have been accused of being a TRA, a labour politician, a CCHQ bot or a TWAW gender ideologue.

It's extremely boring and at this point I'm literally only posting otherwise this is just a Conservative voting echo chamber.

Helleofabore · 28/09/2023 16:23

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 16:16

Yes, except lots of posters on here say they won't believe a labour or lib dem MP who says woman = adult human female. So where does that leave us? If you are asking the question, surely you have to accept the answer?

As I asked you before adamryan, what question could be asked that would give a clear and definitive answer. I have already suggested that 'What is a woman' will allow for ambiguity and will need a follow up question about whether any male can be considered a woman, worded however it needs to be.

So where does that leave us?

It leaves us discussing what the best question is so that this opportunity is most useful to voters who want to have those answers. If you, personally, don't want the answers then that discussion is not really relevant to you.

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 16:23

MargotBamborough · 28/09/2023 14:32

No, Adam, I think you're the one getting mixed up here.

You're close to getting it - and that Venn diagram illustrates the point nicely - but not quite getting it.

People who are opposed to gender identity theory because they are right wing/religious are not gender critical. Far from it. These are people who uphold gender norms, many of which are found in their religious texts. The kind of gender norms they choose to uphold are largely linked to biological sex in a fundamental way and focus on roles and behaviours, e.g. women are subordinate to men, a woman's place is in the home, a man's role is to provide for his family, women should bear children, women should stay at home and care for their children and when they're done with that they should care for their elderly relatives etc. There is a huge focus on women's value being in their reproductive potential, which is why younger women of childbearing age are valued as objects and post menopausal women become invisible. Given the focus on sexual reproduction, it is also not surprising that the same people who hold those beliefs often oppose homosexual relationships, access to contraception and abortion.

They also uphold other gender norms which do not have to be linked to biological sex, but are nonetheless rooted in them. For example, women frequently - whether they realise it or not - wear clothing and makeup designed to do the equivalent of a male peacock's feathers, i.e. attract a mate. Women's and even little girls' clothes are designed to accentuate hips and breasts, i.e. indicating health and fertility, and makeup is designed to convey the impression of both health, e.g. using foundation to make your skin smooth and glowy, and readiness for sex, e.g. lipstick to give the lips a more intense colour and eye makeup to create the illusion of pupil dilation. Conservatives usually prefer women to dress in this way, which is considered gender conforming.

Right wing religious conservatives are not gender critical, they are pro gender, and they are clearly not feminists.

People who are proponents of gender identity theory also uphold gender norms, only different ones. They struggle to uphold the norms based around biological sex because no matter how he behaves, a male person can never bear children. The role of a trans woman is clearly not to be a stay at home mother and housewife; indeed, a trans woman who has transitioned in middle age may well have been the main breadwinner whilst their actual female wife was a stay at home mother and housewife. So this person clearly has not been "living as a woman" in that sense.

But what other sense is there? They can't bear children and I see no evidence that trans women are "living as women" in the sense that they stay at home and do housework, or care for elderly relatives, whilst the person on whom they are financially dependent goes out to work. So what is left? I'm afraid it's really only push up bras and lipstick, as inconvenient as that truth is.

To complicate matters still further, when a male person who chooses to wear push up bras and lipstick, and believes that in doing so they are "living as a woman" and therefore entitled to use women's spaces, what happens when they meet with resistance from women who want their single sex spaces to remain single sex? The answer appears to be, in most cases, that they default to behaving in a very male way. Some are aggressive and violent, inviting women to suck their lady dicks or brandishing placards saying "punch a TERF". Others merely continue to use women's spaces in the full knowledge that women have not consented to this but there is nothing they can do to stop it. This is not women's behaviour; this is men's behaviour.

So we see that, unable to uphold gender norms which are inextricably linked with biological sex, male people who wish to show that they are "living as women" often present in an over-the-top, stereotypically feminine way in terms of their physical appearance, but their behaviour tends to remain undeniably male, especially when challenged.

There are so many overlaps between right wing religious conservatives and gender ideologues, the most significant being the fact that they all seem to believe female people should bend to the will of male people.

Gender critical feminists do not believe any of these things. We simply believe that biological sex is real and important. A female person cannot completely identify out of the constraints placed upon her as a result of having a female body, just as a male person cannot comprehend these constraints because he has never experienced them. We reject the stereotypes and norms as far as it is possible to do so, and where it is difficult to avoid performing them, e.g. when newly postpartum, we at least recognise them for what they are. We are also broadly accepting of gender non conformity and non heterosexual orientations.

The only thing gender critical feminists have in common with right wing religious conservatives is that we believe a woman is something you are or are not, based on your biological sex, not something you identify as based on your inner feelings.

And frankly I am getting a bit sick of having it pointed out to me that gender critical feminists have certain beliefs in common with the far right (I expect we all also believe that water is wet) by people who actually have a lot more in common with those people than we do, notably the fact that they clearly believe male people should enjoy higher status than female people.

So please stop banging on about how problematic it is that we have certain things in common with right wing religious conservatives, and go and make the same point to trans activists.

While you're at it, you could ask them whether they think it is problematic that both they and neo Nazis like to engage in the violent persecution of groups of people they think are beneath them.

I know all of that. But the fact is I've been subject to numerous pile ons, on this board, for stating things like:

  • Kemi Badenoch is not a feminist
  • KJK is not a feminist
  • Suella Braverman is populist and scary
  • Muslim men are not more of an issue than men generally
  • men can currently legally be recognised as women
  • I don't want to listen to Jordan Peterson
  • "free speech" proponents are often right wing
  • I think that the rape and violence statistics in this country are terrifying
  • I trust Starmer more than Johnson/Truss/Sunak

These are views I cannot square with posters being feminist and supporting women. They are views I can square with posters being right wing and posting on the board because they agree with the broader views of defining women on the basis of their biology.

MargotBamborough · 28/09/2023 16:17

AdamRyan · 28/09/2023 16:15

I don't know what you mean by "worse"

I think the Conservatives are more likely to define what women means in interviews.

I think Labour are more likely to implement policies that benefit women.

I think neither party will update legislation to legally exclude TW with a GRC.

Why do you think Labour will implement policies that benefit women?

You can't protect what you refuse to even acknowledge or name.

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