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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

MPs who believe ‘women have a penis’ will be named and shamed ahead of general election

495 replies

fromorbit · 24/09/2023 09:53

Brilliant plan sure plenty of Mumsnetters will be up for being part of the volunteer army asking questions:

An “army” of volunteers in an apolitical new grassroots campaign is gearing up to meet all MPs and parliamentary candidates at hustings events and on their doorsteps to ask each one the question: “What is a woman?”

Their answers will be video recorded and uploaded individually to a website which is being launched in the coming months.

It will allow voters to find out instantly whether their next MP thinks women must be born female and that binary biological sex cannot be changed, or whether they believe that male-born transgender women are women too.

Sharron Davies MBE, the former Olympic swimmer and feminist campaigner who has been appointed as the campaign’s first ambassador, said it would let voters “know if their MP will stand up for women”.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/23/mps-believe-women-penis-named-trans-election-sharron-davies/

We also need a women's issues hustings in every constituency in the election run by people who know what women are. Women Won't Wheesht (WWW) have already run the prototype in Rutherglen [the hustings was reinstated after an attempt to cancel it after they realised banning women's meetings is in fact illegal.]
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4899435-womens-group-hustings-for-rutherglen-hamilton-west-byelection-cancelled

MPs who believe ‘women have a penis’ will be named and shamed ahead of general election

A new website will allow voters to instantly find out whether their MP thinks women must be born female

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/23/mps-believe-women-penis-named-trans-election-sharron-davies

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
Winnading · 26/09/2023 18:11

We're in the run up to an election and the Tories know they will probably lose, they'll be trying all sorts of angles to try to cling on to power.

well yeah, the reason for being a political party is to actually be in power. Labour too will be trying all sorts of angles to get into power and once there, cling on.

EasternStandard · 26/09/2023 18:08

Why would anyone not want to know MPs views on such an important topic

If there’s a party line even, let’s hear it

It’s so odd that posters don’t want to know. Is it a Labour allegiance thing, I’m guessing so.

AdamRyan · 26/09/2023 18:06

ArabeIIaScott · 26/09/2023 17:51

What's with the 'blah blah blah'? Can you not have a discussion?

People asking me "what is your definition of woman?"as some kind of gotcha is kinda boring now. And I have never said anything different to "woman = adult human female"

EasternStandard · 26/09/2023 18:05

AdamRyan · 26/09/2023 18:03

When there are two options, preferring one doesn't mean you like it.
I was asked what question I'd prefer to "can women have penises?" And I answered it

Ha you don’t like it now. Ok

‘Far prefer’

Very politician like of you

AdamRyan · 26/09/2023 18:03

EasternStandard · 26/09/2023 17:58

So earlier posts were not quite true

I far prefer Posie's poster tactic and asking MPs about their definition of women

It is what they’re doing

KJK can’t be everywhere but if you like her approach this is the same, just amplified

When there are two options, preferring one doesn't mean you like it.
I was asked what question I'd prefer to "can women have penises?" And I answered it

ResisterRex · 26/09/2023 18:03

ArabeIIaScott · 26/09/2023 17:45

We have another early adopter:

https://twitter.com/mathcampbell/status/1706391927606645063

'I’ll save her the drive to Argyll, Bute & South Lochaber if I’m selected. Trans women are women. Also, abortion is healthcare (and an inalienable right). And a couple days late, but happy #BiVisibilityDay'

Oh my.

EasternStandard · 26/09/2023 17:58

AdamRyan · 26/09/2023 17:46

No. All my concerns still stand:

  1. people tend to vote for the party/leader rather than their candidate
  2. MPs have to toe the party line so it's impossible to know what their views are
  3. it opens up female mps in particular to threats, abuse and harassment. Not what we need when women are already leaving politics because of how badly they are treated.

I would consider voting for a party that explicitly said they were going to strengthen sex based rights for women but none of them are saying that at the moment. In terms of actual policy position (I.e. what they do vs what they say) they are all much of a muchness.

So earlier posts were not quite true

I far prefer Posie's poster tactic and asking MPs about their definition of women

It is what they’re doing

KJK can’t be everywhere but if you like her approach this is the same, just amplified

ArabeIIaScott · 26/09/2023 17:51

AdamRyan · 26/09/2023 17:47

Blah blah blah blah
Why do you think I'm defining it as anything different to adult human female?

What's with the 'blah blah blah'? Can you not have a discussion?

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 17:51

AdamRyan · 26/09/2023 17:47

Blah blah blah blah
Why do you think I'm defining it as anything different to adult human female?

I have no idea why you think saying women don't have penises is antifeminist then.

A person with a penis is a male human. A person who isn't a male human is a female human.

What am I missing here?

Or are you saying it is antifeminist to define women by what they are not rather than by what they are? If that's your argument I don't disagree and it's one of the reasons why "cis" is offensive.

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 17:48

ArabeIIaScott · 26/09/2023 17:45

We have another early adopter:

https://twitter.com/mathcampbell/status/1706391927606645063

'I’ll save her the drive to Argyll, Bute & South Lochaber if I’m selected. Trans women are women. Also, abortion is healthcare (and an inalienable right). And a couple days late, but happy #BiVisibilityDay'

What part of that tweet do they think is an answer to the question, "What is a woman?"

If you answer the question, "What is a woman?" with "trans women are women" it almost comes across like you think trans women are the only kind of women and female women aren't even on your radar.

AdamRyan · 26/09/2023 17:47

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 17:41

So how would you define a woman then?

There's almost a 100% correlation between being an adult human female and not having a penis.

Blah blah blah blah
Why do you think I'm defining it as anything different to adult human female?

AdamRyan · 26/09/2023 17:46

EasternStandard · 26/09/2023 17:26

Has seeing that they will be asking the question you preferred meant you’re now pro the campaign?

No. All my concerns still stand:

  1. people tend to vote for the party/leader rather than their candidate
  2. MPs have to toe the party line so it's impossible to know what their views are
  3. it opens up female mps in particular to threats, abuse and harassment. Not what we need when women are already leaving politics because of how badly they are treated.

I would consider voting for a party that explicitly said they were going to strengthen sex based rights for women but none of them are saying that at the moment. In terms of actual policy position (I.e. what they do vs what they say) they are all much of a muchness.

ArabeIIaScott · 26/09/2023 17:45

We have another early adopter:

https://twitter.com/mathcampbell/status/1706391927606645063

'I’ll save her the drive to Argyll, Bute & South Lochaber if I’m selected. Trans women are women. Also, abortion is healthcare (and an inalienable right). And a couple days late, but happy #BiVisibilityDay'

https://twitter.com/mathcampbell/status/1706391927606645063

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 17:41

AdamRyan · 26/09/2023 17:06

No. I think defining women as humans w/o a penis is antifeminist

So how would you define a woman then?

There's almost a 100% correlation between being an adult human female and not having a penis.

EasternStandard · 26/09/2023 17:26

AdamRyan · 26/09/2023 17:24

Honestly. Its like the thread gestapo
If I was posting irrelevant stuff you wouldn't bother with the snippy response.

I'll post what and when I want on this public site thanks. If it breaks guidelines feel free to report

Has seeing that they will be asking the question you preferred meant you’re now pro the campaign?

AdamRyan · 26/09/2023 17:24

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 26/09/2023 15:16

AdamRyan thanks for restating that you're only responding to the headline. Noted. Come back when you have something relevant to contribute.

Honestly. Its like the thread gestapo
If I was posting irrelevant stuff you wouldn't bother with the snippy response.

I'll post what and when I want on this public site thanks. If it breaks guidelines feel free to report

AdamRyan · 26/09/2023 17:06

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 16:06

A woman is an adult human female, i.e. a member of the childbearing sex.

Do you think this is antifeminist?

No. I think defining women as humans w/o a penis is antifeminist

Baldieheid · 26/09/2023 16:22

And I'd like to point out that his abuse of dogs is mentioned BEFORE his abuse of children.

Baldieheid · 26/09/2023 16:21

Oh yes, it's bugger all to do with sexual attractiveness. It's about power.
You just have to read this story to understand just how fucking sick some men are.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-66920778

Adam Britton

Adam Britton: British croc expert admits sexually abusing dogs

Adam Britton has pleaded guilty to 60 charges involving bestiality and child abuse material in Australia.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-66920778

Kucinghitam · 26/09/2023 16:20

I am very very grateful to @KingsHeath53 for being the Voice of the So Marginalised Right Side Of History, shining a brilliant light with the devastating winning points such as:

*But what about the poor menz??
*Not All Men Are Like That
*Sometimes women are bad too
*It's only a tiny number of Special People
and especially, the winning point
*N+1

RavingStone · 26/09/2023 16:16

baldieheid that's so awful. I am disgusted by those men and so angry for you. How terrifying to be aware but incapacitated.

During my second pregnancy I experienced levels of sexual harassment comparable to when I was teenage/ 20s. I realised then that it was vulnerability, not "hotness" that these men go for.

My second baby was a huge bugger lying in the wrong position and moving became difficult, awkward and slow. All of the instances of sexual harassment happened when I was alone, moving from a to b, and my vulnerability was obvious.

Helleofabore · 26/09/2023 16:10

It is not just female prisoners, it is more far reaching than that.

www.canlii.org/en/on/onwsiat/doc/2022/2022onwsiat1544/2022onwsiat1544.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQALVHJhbnNnZW5kZXIAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=5

Toronto court involving a female prison officer.

The issue on appeal was whether the worker had entitlement to benefits for PTSD and, if so, under which WSIB policy.

By way of background, the worker claimed that while working as a corrections officer, she developed a mental stress injury of PTSD, resulting from being assigned to a mental health watch on December 16, 2019, in which she was responsible for monitoring a transgender inmate on suicide watch on a closed circuit camera. She claimed that the assignment was not manageable for her because of her own childhood trauma, which she advised the employer and the union of. However, she had to continue in the assignment for the duration of her shift and extra hours afterwards. She began missing time from work on December 19, 2019 and was diagnosed with PTSD on January 2, 2020.

and

The worker testified that she told her manager that she was not comfortable watching this inmate on camera and that she was not familiar with all the protocols for transgender inmates. In her view, it should have been a male officer watching the inmate. She told her manager that she would take any other assignment as she was not comfortable with this assignment. Her manager told her she had to take the assignment and they would try to get someone to switch out with her. At one point she saw the inmate go to the bathroom, but the inmate covered the camera and therefore she had to call officers right away as she could not see if the inmate was head-banging or trying to tie something around her neck. The officers went down and found that the inmate had covered the camera to go to the bathroom even though the worker had already seen her do this many times.

The worker testified that she asked a few managers to switch her out of the assignment but it had to be a female officer monitoring the inmate as this was required by the protocol. This was the first time in Canada that an inmate identifying as female with external genitalia was on camera and no policies were yet in place for this.

The worker testified that she became more and more anxious and felt traumatized by being forced to watch this inmate and by being unable to leave. She asked for help from her manager and to be taken off the post a number of times. She was so upset that she divulged that she had been sexually abused in childhood to her manager. However, her manager told her she could lose her job or be reprimanded if she left the post. The manager told her she would ask the female officers to switch with her, as the monitoring on camera had to be done by a female, but the manager did not call her back.

The worker testified that she was supposed to work a 9 hour shift, from 2:00 p.m. to 11:00 p.m. However, she had no relief for a break to go to the bathroom or for supper as she could not leave her post unless someone came to relieve her. Other officers brought her in food but would not relieve her for a break. When the next manager came on and her shift ended, the manager told her that he had asked two female officers to replace her but one went home sick and the other refused the assignment. She was therefore ordered to stay until someone else was able to relieve her. Therefore, she ended up remaining on the post until 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning.

This woman won her case for compensation for her PTSD retrauma.

2022 ONWSIAT 1544 (CanLII) | Decision No. 895/22 | CanLII

Access all information related to judgment Decision No. 895/22, 2022 ONWSIAT 1544 (CanLII) on CanLII.

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onwsiat/doc/2022/2022onwsiat1544/2022onwsiat1544.html?searchUrlHash=AAAAAQALVHJhbnNnZW5kZXIAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=5

Helleofabore · 26/09/2023 16:09

To @KingsHeath53

Here are a few threads where it is quite clear that there are issues with males being prioritised above female people to the detriment of female people

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4870071-gym-swimming-changing-issue?page=1

Some people who filed a complaint about the situation in the link below were reported to the police for making complaints about safeguarding.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4409035-A-trans-Identified-BDSM-fan-gun-nut-is-now-a-senior-leader-at-Girlguiding?page=1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4539958-big-update-on-rape-crisis-legal-challenge?page=1

Below is an example of just how hard it is to use the exclusions available to woman to exclude all male people. Some women have to go to court to do so, how is this not detrimental:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4735747-raquel-rosario-sanchez-has-won-her-case-against-bristol-students-union

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4772051-film-of-protest-outside-the-lesbian-project-meeting?page=1

I mean, below is a feminist group who has not been able to show their documentary in Edinburgh because it has been blocked physically via violence and intimidation and threat 2, actually is it 3, times so far.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4793551-adulthumanfemale-edinburgh-26-apr?page=1

I am very happy to keep posting links to threads that show just how inclusion of male people has been already detrimental to women and girls. Just say the word and I will find so many more for you to start that research you seem to have not done.

Would you care to come back and give us your number of how many women and girls you find will be acceptable to come to any type of harm when gender is prioritised over sex in society, in law and in policy?

Any number, just tell us how many you are comfortable with being harmed?

Gym /. Swimming changing issue | Mumsnet

I'll start first and say I'm sorry for intruding on a safe space for women. Am a single dad (widow but not recent) with three kids 2 girls 11 +13 an...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4870071-gym-swimming-changing-issue?page=1

MargotBamborough · 26/09/2023 16:06

AdamRyan · 26/09/2023 15:14

I mean how antifeminist:
What is a woman? A person without a penis

Gives me the rage.

A woman is an adult human female, i.e. a member of the childbearing sex.

Do you think this is antifeminist?