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Starmer rowing back on self ID - what do we think?

705 replies

JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff · 23/03/2023 13:18

The Times is reporting in its live politics feed that KS has explicitly said Labour will not push for self ID without public backing. I know not everyone can access their content so here is a copied n pasted version: what do you think?

Sir Keir Starmer has shifted Labour’s position on transgender rights as he said the bitter rows over Scotland’s Gender Recognition Bill showed the party must consider public opinion on the issue.The leader of the Labour Party has previously insisted it was committed to updating the Gender Recognition Act to introduce self-identification for transgender people.However, in a significant shift in Labour’s policy, he said the backlash over the SNP’s gender reform bill had made him think again. The SNP passed legislation this year that would make it significantly easier for people to acquire a gender recognition certificate and reduced the minimum age for doing so to 16. The bill was blocked by the UK government.Starmer said: “I think that if we reflect on what’s happened in Scotland, the lesson I take from that is that if you’re going to make reforms, you have to carry the public with you.

“And I think that’s a very important message and I think that’s why it’s clear that in Scotland, there should be a reset of the situation.”

OP posts:
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ScrollingLeaves · 27/03/2023 21:53

TooBigForMyBoots · Today 21:46

I have not seen anything to show that Labour, Lib Dems and Greens are not much worse than the Conservatives on this issue, bad though the Conservatives have been.

BreadInCaptivity · 27/03/2023 21:52

www.england.nhs.uk/commissioning/spec-services/npc-crg/gender-dysphoria-clinical-programme/implementing-advice-from-the-cass-review/

Link re: implementation information for clarity.

BreadInCaptivity · 27/03/2023 21:50

TooBigForMyBoots · 27/03/2023 21:46

The Cass review was commissioned.
The Casey review was commissioned.

Any changes yet?
Back in the 80s we were taught about govermental Reviews, Investigations and Enquiries. They don't mean Change.

The recommendations from the interim Cass Review (the full review is yet to be published) have already been accepted and being implemented.

GIDS is closing and will be replaced by two (north and south) services with a view to rolling out more, with a focus on a multi disciplinary/holistic approach.

You might want to research your assertions before posting.

TooBigForMyBoots · 27/03/2023 21:46

The Cass review was commissioned.
The Casey review was commissioned.

Any changes yet?
Back in the 80s we were taught about govermental Reviews, Investigations and Enquiries. They don't mean Change.

ResisterRex · 27/03/2023 21:43

TooBigForMyBoots · 27/03/2023 21:36

The Maternity Bill.
https://debbiehayton.com/2021/03/17/why-does-penny-mordaunt-think-trans-men-are-men/

This is highly partial. The Lords challenges this as anyone with access to the internet and who remembers tracking it, knows. Here's some of what the Act as passed says:

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2021/5/crossheading/ministerial-maternity-allowances/enacted

"(1)
A mother or expectant mother designated as a Minister on Leave under this section is to be paid an allowance in accordance with section 2.
(2)
The Prime Minister may designate a mother or expectant mother as a Minister on Leave if—
(a)
the mother or expectant mother appears to the Prime Minister to satisfy either of the conditions in subsection (3), and
(b)
the mother or expectant mother ceases to hold a ministerial office (“the first ministerial office”) but remains a member of Her Majesty’s Government in the United Kingdom by virtue of immediately being appointed to another ministerial office (“the designated ministerial office”) for the purposes of being designated under this section.
(3)
The conditions in this subsection are that—
(a)
the expectant mother is within 12 weeks before the expected week of childbirth;
(b)
the mother has given birth to a child within the previous 4 weeks.
(4)
In subsection (3)(b) “child” includes a still-born child within the meaning of the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953 (see section 41(1) of that Act)"

Pray tell, how did the Tories erase women with these words?

ScrollingLeaves · 27/03/2023 21:41

What Sunak said
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4517255-JHB-asks-Rishi-Sunak-what-is-a-woman

He said he agreed with what Boris said.
Boris had recently made it clear enough (just before Sunak was asked that) that TW are not the same as women.

A year ago:
At Wednesday’s PMQs, Boris Johnson told MPs that “we must recognise when people want to make a transition in their lives that they should be treated with the maximum possible generosity and respect” but added “when it comes to distinguishing between man and woman, the basic facts of biology remain overwhelmingly important( The Guardian)

June last year:
Boris Johnson says there is a difference between being a woman and a trans woman and that someone 'cannot be born with a penis without being a man' - as he reaffirms his backing for FINA's ruling on trans athletes in swimming ( The Daily Mail)

Some Conservatives began to slow down and take stock.

The Conversion Therapy Bill for T was paused due to concern that it would chill explorative psychological therapies for comorbidities to gender dysphoria and even parents’ involvement.

The Cass review was commissioned.

What did Sunak say more recently?

JHB asks Rishi Sunak 'what is a woman?' | Mumsnet

Mumsnet makes parents' lives easier by pooling knowledge, advice and support on everything from conception to childbirth, from babies to teenagers.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4517255-JHB-asks-Rishi-Sunak-what-is-a-woman

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 27/03/2023 21:35

They did. And since then they've written it into policies and Bills

Which bills?

TooBigForMyBoots · 27/03/2023 21:35

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 27/03/2023 21:09

The Tories introduced Self ID in 2017

They didn't though, did they? Maria Miller wanted to, certainly, but she got headed off at the pass, thanks to a takedown by Janice Turner and pushback from GC feminists.

As for Boris, you're arguing with yourself, because no one disputes that the Tories used to be more inclined towards self-ID. But they have shifted, in response to public concern.

This is what a Home Office minister said about KJK and the threat to women's rights today. Can you imagine any of the Labour front bench saying anything similar?

Nothing about the Lesbians who were attacked in the UK this weekend?

TooBigForMyBoots · 27/03/2023 21:32

They hit the pause button when Nicola Sturgeon resigned (similar to Starmer) and I haven't seen any roll back of the damage they've done. Plenty of pretty words and future faking but no action from the government.

ScrollingLeaves · 27/03/2023 21:27

They've been in power since 2010. This is on them.

We know that. But they hit the pause button.

Greens, Lib Dems and Labour want acceleration.

And it was Labour who created the fantastically ill thought out GRA 2004, and the Equality Act 2010 streaked with poor law.

TooBigForMyBoots · 27/03/2023 21:17

They did. And since then they've written it into policies and Bills. Put rapists into women's prisons. Put rapists onto women's wards, then denied that a woman was raped because no women were on her ward.

Since 2017 rapists and child abusers have filled their boots because of the Tory TWAW shite written into health, education, equality and law & justice policies.

They've been in power since 2010. This is on them.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 27/03/2023 21:09

The Tories introduced Self ID in 2017

They didn't though, did they? Maria Miller wanted to, certainly, but she got headed off at the pass, thanks to a takedown by Janice Turner and pushback from GC feminists.

As for Boris, you're arguing with yourself, because no one disputes that the Tories used to be more inclined towards self-ID. But they have shifted, in response to public concern.

This is what a Home Office minister said about KJK and the threat to women's rights today. Can you imagine any of the Labour front bench saying anything similar?

https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1640267395892649985?s=20

ScrollingLeaves · 27/03/2023 20:44

Thank you that is a useful list and warns against complacency. Unless a party is explicit that there are two fixed sexes GC voters need to probe their candidates carefully.

Who in the Conservative party are the least likely to understand the GC women’s, Let Women Speak women’s, LGB Alliance’s and Gay Men’s Network’s
points of view?

Laladybird · 27/03/2023 15:57

Tanith · 26/03/2023 22:28

"Gender ideology is more aligned with the left."

Where on earth do you get that idea from?

Christine Burns, one of the pioneers who set up Press For Change, was a Conservative party member.
Caitlyn Jenner is a Republican.
Theresa May made a speech at the Pink News Awards when she was Prime Minister, promising Self-ID and is still pro-trans, calling for a " trans-inclusive conversion therapy ban" last year.
Sue Pascoe is a TRA and is an area Chair of the Conservative Women's Organisation.
Rishi Sunak was unable to define what a woman is when first asked, finally coming up with an answer only a month ago.
Maria Miller started the whole Gender Recognition fiasco with Self id when she was Conservative Women and Equalities Minister, carried on by Caroline Noakes.
Ben Fitter-Harding is the Conservative Councillor in Canterbury accusing Rosie Duffield of transphobia.
Boris Johnson avoided ever defining a woman, and his wife was definitely pro-TRA - mind you, he lies about everything, so...

All Keir Starmer is doing is exactly what the Conservatives have done. No-one batted an eyelid when they started rowing back - and they're the ones who've been in power throughout. They could have stopped it in its tracks in this country and they didn't.

Thank you that is a useful list and warns against complacency. Unless a party is explicit that there are two fixed sexes GC voters need to probe their candidates carefully.

Green Party is easy though. No GC person can vote for them now.

LittleFingerStrength · 27/03/2023 09:29

Greta the theologian.

LittleFingerStrength · 27/03/2023 09:26

Laladybird · 27/03/2023 08:52

I didn't know about Shahrar Ali. Andy Wightman was hounded out of the Scottish Green Party for even considering, let alone expressing, Gender Critical views.

Clearly there are different views across political parties. BUT

  • some parties tolerate different views
  • some political parties won't tolerate anyone stating the facts of life

The Green parties are particularly toxic on this. Gender Ideology seems to have obliterated any interest in saving the planet.

Great, the Honoury Theologian is another who has strange ideas on science, she supports non binary identities who are nasty about women.

How Greens expect to be taken seriously on any science when they are anti science on what is a woman is beyond me.

Laladybird · 27/03/2023 08:52

I didn't know about Shahrar Ali. Andy Wightman was hounded out of the Scottish Green Party for even considering, let alone expressing, Gender Critical views.

Clearly there are different views across political parties. BUT

  • some parties tolerate different views
  • some political parties won't tolerate anyone stating the facts of life

The Green parties are particularly toxic on this. Gender Ideology seems to have obliterated any interest in saving the planet.

LittleFingerStrength · 26/03/2023 23:34

RosaBonheur · 26/03/2023 23:29

Remember how remainers lent their votes to Labour in 2017 in the hopes of getting a softer Brexit or a second referendum and were then told that because they voted Labour they had voted to get Brexit done?

That is what Starmer will do with self ID. He is fudging things now to win votes, without ever promising not to do it, and then once Labour have won the next election he'll claim that the fact that they won is proof that the electorate supports self ID.

You mark my words.

Show quote history

Yes, that will happen.

Have any politicians tweeted?

I saw this.

Shahrar Ali

Not sure what's more terrifying:Totalitarian mob siding with repeated punching of 70 year old woman (pictured) thinking they are right side of history. Deafening silence of politicians to condemn this violent misogyny (with some in my own party either making light or condoning)

BreadInCaptivity · 26/03/2023 23:32

Rosa I agree with you.

I don't trust him or the LP in general on this issue.

Pixiedust1234 · 26/03/2023 23:32

TooBigForMyBoots · 26/03/2023 21:11

We already have men attacking women who speak. It happened this weekend, it's been happening for years. The Tories know about it, but have done nothing.

Men have always attacked women no matter who is in political power, mainly because its men in power.

Why haven't the Opposition been a thorn in their side over this, why have THEY done nothing?

RosaBonheur · 26/03/2023 23:29

BreadInCaptivity · 26/03/2023 22:50

All Keir Starmer is doing is exactly what the Conservatives have done. No-one batted an eyelid when they started rowing back - and they're the ones who've been in power throughout. They could have stopped it in its tracks in this country and they didn't.

You're making a false equivalence here. He hasn't rowed back.

All he said was if you are going to make reforms you need to carry the public with you.

He's not repudiating self id one iota he just thinks we need to be educated brainwashed into agreeing to it - and exactly how is public support going to be measured?

Oh I know, what about a general election where we don't vote for the party that's absolutely captured from the grassroots to the leadership...

Starmer is going to have to do far, far more than this to have been said to even revisit his current stance, never mind being said to row back from it.

Remember how remainers lent their votes to Labour in 2017 in the hopes of getting a softer Brexit or a second referendum and were then told that because they voted Labour they had voted to get Brexit done?

That is what Starmer will do with self ID. He is fudging things now to win votes, without ever promising not to do it, and then once Labour have won the next election he'll claim that the fact that they won is proof that the electorate supports self ID.

You mark my words.