City of London Consultation Results - they can't get away with this

I now pay more for membership of a gym in a hotel. Its nicer with fluffy towels and free fruit. I doubt that, as an American hotel chain, they would put up much resistance if a transgender woman insisted on using women's facilities. However I do think they would be concerned to find solutions that did not reduce the experience of women members or spa day customers.

This is not about trans per se. I was not the only woman who snuck into corners and did the towel dance on the day the hotel were hosting Miss Universe. The contestants were like a herd of gazelles. As the research suggests, people/women are often not confident about their bodies, and swimming needs a level of confidence. And if people are paying, it needs to be an enjoyable experience.

I have not used a GLL facility for a decade. Women in burkas were taking boys aged around thirteen into the women's communal changing room. No other options. The boys eyes were out on stalks. The women's response was that the English have no shame - they knew as they watched East Enders. The poor receptionist shrugged, there was nothing she could do.

I cancelled my membership. £49.50 x 12 x 10. Close on £6,000. Peanuts presumably to GLL, but it will add up if other women decide that they only go swimming if they enjoy the experience, and are not being used as pawns in the race to allow GLL to hit the right levels on Stonewall's wokeometer. .

Needmoresleep GLL have had at least one complaint, mine
I'm still yet to hear back from them.
It does feel like put up and shut.

Someone has been doing some research into why the numbers of people swimming is declining.

[[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7075905/Three-ten-adults-havent-swimming-10-years.html]]

Body consciousness apparently is a major factor. No one seems to be making a link between a move to unisex changing facilities and the loss of single -sex swim sessions, but perhaps they might.

Each time a leisure operator like GLL says that they don't receive complaints, they are getting it wrong. Women tend not to complain. Instead they vote with their feet. This is what happens when your priorities shift from encouraging women and ethnic minorities to take more exercise to protecting the feelz of those under the trans-umbrella. Competing rights. Women lose.

I wonder if whichever brave woman went incognito to we're still here would be willing to make some kind of statement about what she heard there for a legal challenge (if one is forthcoming). There are quite a few bits of evidence floating around as to what their plans for the consultation were before hand.

It's strange that the consultation looks to be dodgy. Lord is an elected member (as I understood it) but he wouldn't be able to do that thing without officers who would know how it's supposed to work.

report from the 'We're Still Here' TRA conference September 8th 2018

The HarpySings wrote:
(extract)
"Mr Lord was very bumfaced about the Andrew Gilligan article about him in July and said that opposition to the GRA consultation just wanted to “cause mayhem.” He directly mentioned the Man Friday Hampstead Pond stuff.

Apparently “there have been no incidents of men turning up to the women’s pond but Man Friday turned up to the men’s pond and demanded admission- by force if necessary.”

As of 8/9/18, 15.5k people had completed the attitudes survey.

Lord said that TW were entitled to the protected characteristic “Woman”- he said the Gov dept on woman and equalities has confirmed this. Apparently the brave and stunning vexatious litigator Giuliana Kendall has something to do with this being confirmed.

Edward Lord is worried about the 125 elected members of the London assembly or whatever the fuck Londoners have governing the city. Not all of them are onside. He is worried that all of this is going to be discussed at committee and that “terfs are going to protest”.

Jane Fae said that JF has been in contact w/ YHA and GirlGuiding. Fae is of the opinion that the law doesn’t distinguish gender and sex. They are not defined and parliament will not define them.

The TRAs are fully prepared to take local councils to court of they try to invoke EA2010 for reasons of sex. JF was nodding at Giuliana when JF said this.

James Morton (Scottish Trans Alliance) said to be “strategic about test cases to ensure strong case law”.

Edward Lord agreed. He also said that the City of London Corp city solicitor and the Chief Exec are “strong allies”.

Regards the consultation doc put out by the City of London Corp… Lord implied that they were going to go through the answers and cherry pick the the qualitative snapshots. (continues)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398737-We-re-Still-Here-Conference-8th-September-A-report-from-the-inside

Be interesting to know who the the City of London Corp city solicitor and the Chief Exec are, given they are 'strong allies' of Edward Lord & co.

It's strange that the consultation looks to be dodgy. Lord is an elected member (as I understood it) but he wouldn't be able to do that thing without officers who would know how it's supposed to work.

The cartoon sums it all up. Don't think it's private eye though. It's not due out til 31st May. Looks a bit like the telegraph?

Bit of levity, from the Private Eye apparently.

twitter.com/daphnebroon2/status/1132337354788757505

Precisely Goal

It's childish, emotive bullshit. Hyperbole. Equating boundaries and having to balance rights with others with denial of rights. And it's demanding respect and privilege that travels one way only.

However, one 22-year-old who identified as 'Agender' said: 'Transgender people just want to be treated like human beings.

From the mail link..

I don't get how, asking people to use either the pond for their sex, or the mixed pond is not treating them like human beings?! Its treating them exactly the same as everyone else.

A thread from someone who has in the past not weighed up TWAW and TWAT and come down on TWAW

Adam Wagner
‏*@AdamWagner1*
Is it legal to include/exclude transgender women from swimming in a women-only pond in Hampstead? (thread) /1

twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1131851534097100801

Edward Lord's policy is an open invitation to predators, and I am raging about it. Thousands of us warned him that bad men would take advantage of the policy. What did he do? Bin our responses and steamrollered his Queer agenda over the safety of women and children.

Edward Lord and partner Meg-John Barker have been very influential in promoting Queer ideology across multiple sectors.

Lord has held influential roles influencing sport and universities diversity policies.

Both Lord & Barker identify as non-binary.
Previously Edward Lord part of the campaign for bisexual rights & was critical of Stonewall:

2014 blog: 'Stonewall: a new dawn for the UK’s top LGBT equality campaign'
(extract)
In recent years, Stonewall, and more particularly its egregious Chief Executive, Ben Summerskill, has put itself on the wrong side of debates – arguing for example in 2010 that there was no need to campaign for equal marriage as civil partnerships were quite sufficient. Furthermore, Summerskill steadfastly refused to allow Stonewall in England to support trans* people in their battle for equality; and, most recently, he has consistently used the term ‘gay’ to cover all queer folk, which risks excluding those who identify as lesbian, bisexual, or in some other way that best suits them.

Then, last Thursday came the news that many LGB&T activists across the UK have long been waiting for. Ben has gone.

In his place as Acting Chief Executive is Ruth Hunt: Ben’s Deputy since last last April and a leading campaigner with the charity since 2005. In my experience of Ruth she is not only a highly effective lobbyist but also far more considered in approach and willing to listen to all sections of our communities.

Ruth has already made clear that she wishes to adopt a far more open and inclusive approach to Stonewall’s work. In her first tweet as Acting CEO she loyally said that she was proud to carry on Ben’s legacy but recognised that there is lots to do in Britain and around the world to end homophobia and biphobia." (continues)
edwardlord.org/2014/01/28/stonewall-a-new-dawn-for-the-uks-top-lgbt-equality-campaign/

Dr Meg-John Barker (OU senior lecturer) wrote the BACP Best Practice guide which is strongly based on Queer Theory.

discussed on threads last year and currently under review by BACP following challenges.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3350668-The-British-Association-for-Counselling-and-Psychotherapy-have-come-up-with-Definition-of-woman

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3339137-BACP-Gender-Sexual-and-Relationship-Diversity-by-Dr-Meg-John-Barker

collaberates with Justin Hancock (founder of BISH providing sex/elationship information for teenagers and schools)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3357713-BISH-proudly-supported-by

Edward Lord:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3352843-First-there-was-Jess-Bradley-then-the-Challenors-now-Edward-Lord

Freemasons:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3323475-Surprise-The-Masons-now-welcome-Transwomen-but-not-women
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3324416--Freemasons-to-admit-women-but-only-if-they-first-joined-as-men

Re City of London Consultation:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3317922-City-of-London-Corporation-consultation-is-out-this-covers-Hampstead-Ponds

also:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3316098-Childrens-Convenor-Elected-Councillor-calls-women-cunts-on-Twitter-rants

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3396169-John-Bercow-sex-pest-ridicules-GC-Women-friend-of-Pink-News-Edward-Lord-who-refused-UQ-about-prison-policy-following-Karen-White-Case-Unconnected

@YesItsADebate
Hi thanks so much for your work on this I live near the ponds.
Do you remember or have to hand the details of the authorities that run both the women's and men's ponds? I remember they're run by separate authorities.
Will the results of this consultation effect the men's pond too? The press are only mentioning the ladies pond.

"Does this mean that all public toilets provided by the Corporation will also stop being single sex?

eg Barbican and various libraries?"

Yes stumbledin

So much for the mums travelling in to the Barbican with their LOs for Rhyme Time in the library. The loos near the library are so private and tucked away, with such thick walls...

Edward Lord's policy is an open invitation to predators, and I am raging about it. Thousands of us warned him that bad men would take advantage of the policy. What did he do? Bin our responses and steamrollered his Queer agenda over the safety of women and children.

How dare that man - aided by the contemptible CoL - put us and our kids at risk! How dare he add to the growing list of spaces we need but will find ourselves avoiding because Lord - like so many - believes women are not entitled to any boundaries.

Raging!

Done

This only asks for your twitter handle and whether you’ve been blocked by Edward lord.

Maya Forstater
@MForstater
Lets find out who is blocked by
@edwardlord
, City of London elected representative. Are you? docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSe4e0y0FesFemMkdT1BWwQxEyH8nROkiwbmSXV2Cl97iGnE2w/viewform

anyabike
@anyabike
Fill in the form! It’s for a thing.

If a challenge is to be made on this, a judicial review should be based around the way in which the consultation was carried out. All UK public consultations are supposed to comply with the Gunning Principles. www.local.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/The%20Gunning%20Principles.pdf

1. proposals are still at a formative stage
A final decision has not yet been made, or predetermined, by the decision makers

2. there is sufficient information to give ‘intelligent consideration’
The information provided must relate to the consultation and must be available, accessible, and easily interpretable for consultees to provide an informed response

3. there is adequate time for consideration and response
There must be sufficient opportunity for consultees to participate in the consultation. There is no set timeframe for consultation, despite the widely accepted twelve-week consultation period, as the length of time given for consultee to respond can vary depending on the subject and extent of impact of the consultation

4. ‘conscientious consideration’ must be given to the consultation responses before a decision is made
Decision-makers should be able to provide evidence that they took consultation responses into account

In this case, I'm not sure that they complied with any of them.

"The risk of not following these principles could result in a Judicial Review. A number of public bodies across the UK have been taken to Judicial Review and deemed to have acted unlawfully in their Public Sector Equality Duty – usually linked to the four Gunning Principles."

www.nhsinvolvement.co.uk/connect-and-create/consultations/the-gunning-principles

The judicial review should be about the way in which the consultation was carried out and the way the decision was made, rather than the decision itself. If the process was flawed then any decision made is unlawful. I'm not a lawyer, but this is my understanding of how the process works.

Does this mean that all public toilets provided by the Corporation will also stop being single sex?

eg Barbican and various libraries?

This was covered on the BBC London local news this evening, with only one woman putting forward how women's spaces are being invaded and how women are expected to change, not others. The vox pops of 'don't care' (more or less) could have been edited, and in any case, as cameras are not allowed inside the Ladies' Pond area (quite properly), would never be representative.

As a reminder, Stonewall actively campaigned for the removal of the Schedule 3 protections for women and girls in sex-segregated spaces when making its presentation to the Women & Equalities Select Committee about potential reform of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 [thereby acknowledging its understanding of the relationship between the GRA 2004 and EA 2010]

womansplaceuk.org/references-to-removal-of-single-sex-exemptions/

Another conviction of voyeurism in changing rooms. This is a male-pattern crime against girls and women.

Lancashire Telegraph today:
'Pervert filmed 22 women and girls getting changed at Darwen Leisure Centre'
(extract)
"A PERVERT was caught filming a 15-year-old girl as she got changed after a swimming session at Darwen Leisure Centre.
Blackburn magistrates heard when police inspected the phone William David Smith was using they discovered under the cubicle footage of another 21 women and girls. And the court was told his bright blue phone had been wrapped in black tape to make it less noticeable as he carried out his covert activities. (continues)

She said Smith had a previous conviction for voyeurism in 2016 which had resulted in him being put on the Sex Offenders’ Register and made subject to a Sexual Harm Prevention Order.

She said on Friday a 15-year-old girl had been to the Darwen Leisure Centre for a swimming session and was using the mixed changing facilities afterwards when she noticed a hand come under the dividing panel with a phone in it." (continues)

www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/17657739.pervert-filmed-22-women-and-girls-getting-changed-at-darwen-leisure-centre/?ref=twtrec

From that BBC report:

However, Stonewall said the 2010 Equality Act already protected trans people from being discriminated against when accessing services.

Message to Stonewall: read Schedule 3 of the Equality Act 2010, specifically sections 26, 27 and 28.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/3

And read also Schedule 23, specifically section 3:

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/23

And maybe, Stonewall, avoid misrepresenting the Equality Act 2010 to every organisation with which you come into contact?

The BBC's take on the story is here
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-48380940

what the hell does "living as a woman" even mean?

This needs to be challenged every time someone says it. Something along the lines of: "What do you mean by 'living as a woman'? I need to know exactly what you mean, just so that we can be sure that we're talking about the same thing." Then see them tying themselves in knots trying to explain what they mean. Because the only way you can explain it is by invoking regressive sexist stereotypes.

YesItsADebate - you definitely came across as rational and informed. It was great the way you insisted that no man can become a woman, despite being warned to be nice. This is what needs to be done now, we all need to debunk the fallacy/phallus-y that people can change sex, and what the hell does "living as a woman" even mean? People just accept this "living as a woman" cr4p, as if it means something.