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Trans Teen Survival Guide by Fox and Owl

185 replies

womensvoicesmatter · 16/02/2019 15:28

I was curious what's being peddled to teens, so I got the book. I'm only a few pages in and pretty horrified, so I thought I'd share it with you lot.

(This might take some time though, I don't have a lot of free time right now!)

Even the inscription is enraging. The book is dedicated to their trans friend who committed suicide. It's not a subtle few words, it's a whol page including a cartoon of this person with a halo. And it says the book is based on the blog they wrote on tumblr.

While of course I'm sad for Fox and Owl that their friend died, and I recognise that to lose someone to suicide is a terrible trauma I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy, I also think it's deeply irresponsible to start a book aimed at teenagers, lauding someone who killed themselves - especially given the popular myths and misuse of suicide stats about trans kids.

It makes me suspicious of the book before we've even started. What kind of propaganda lies within?

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 16/02/2019 21:13

Why do Fox and Owl have so much influence?

Hmm
FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 16/02/2019 21:04

Thanks for reading this. I find myself grimly fascinated with it the same way as I was when I used to read copies of The Watchtower that a JW school friend had and try to work out what was so attractive about an afterlife with Technicolor wheelbarrows of fresh produce.

R0wantrees · 16/02/2019 20:14

November 2018
Out of court settlement to FPFW in re Owl's piece in Independent:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398870-Independent-newspaper-makes-out-of-court-settlement-to-Fair-Play-For-Women

November 2018, OP TerfAndSerf wrote:

"In an opinion piece in the Metro, on the Transgender DAy of Remembrance, Owl trots out all the misleading statistics

"Transgender Trend are distributing a "factually inaccurate" document (HA! angry) and there's no mention in the opinion piece that the 369 deaths are from across the globe, instead being reported as if all in the UK.

Infants under 1 are most likely to die at the hands of another, second are young people aged 16-24.

These are such misleading 'facts', I'm horrified that a newspaper is prepared to publish this rubbish without checking sources and the actual stats."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3431603-Owls-latest-opinion-piece-in-the-Metro-WARNING-Trans-related

womensvoicesmatter · 16/02/2019 20:12

Thingybob yes, there are quite a few pages previewable on Amazon aren't there.

Link here in case anyone wants to see it. www.amazon.co.uk/Trans-Teen-Survival-Guide-Fisher/dp/1785923412?tag=mumsnetforum-21

Only 5 star reviews so far. Don't think mine is going to be 5 star, somehow!

OP posts:
womensvoicesmatter · 16/02/2019 19:47

This reply has been deleted

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R0wantrees · 16/02/2019 19:19

recent thread, OP gendercritter wrote,
"Generation activism with Fox and Owl

I'm not sure if I've missed this being posted here. For 7 minutes Fox and Owl discuss their activism, the transphobia they face and their 'off the record' meetings with politicians on BBC 3.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p06p3dmg/generation-activism-series-1-4-transgender-rights

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3418355-Generation-activism-with-Fox-and-Owl

Fox and Owl both featured in recent Radio 4 series discussing their sexual relationships:
Fox and Owl
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00028c3

Fox and Joe
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00027y5

Fox and Sharon
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000281p

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00026xh/episodes/player

see also:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3393093-So-apparently-Owl-made-a-film

Fox and Owl, 'This is what non-binary looks like'
www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1FN3wKmERQ

womensvoicesmatter · 16/02/2019 19:16

R0wantrees that's a really moving account. I'm so fucking angry at what's being pushed on non conforming kids and that people I thought were critical thinkers can't see the cult like element to this.

OP posts:
FloralBuntingIsObnoxious · 16/02/2019 18:58

The 'gross, I know' is written as a friendly aside, an attempt to build rapport by playing on the vulnerable embarrassment of the targeted young audience.

That's grooming, plain as day.

R0wantrees · 16/02/2019 18:54

cf

PencilsInSpace's transcript of the young woman's speech who spoke incredibly movingly and powerfully at the end of the 'We Need To Talk' event in Washington.

It was clear how profound the effects she had on the women on the panel and I'm sure all who heard her.

[1:30:40]

"My name is [Cas?], I'm 19 and I just wanted to - so I just wanted to talk, it's not really a question. Ever since I came out, in eighth grade I've been completely involved in radical queer and trans circles and I just wanted to talk about my experience.

So when you first come out nowadays in - every LGBT group is very ... inclusive, let's just say. It's just - you must respect everyone. When you're young, you're like, OK, I mean I want to be accepted by people, it feels bad when people are mean to me, of course I don't want to be mean to someone, right? And so if you don't really - and everything is accepted uncritically.

I know this transman, a trans identified female, and they got a double mastectomy at 15 and had been on testosterone since they were 13 or 14, and you're not allowed to raise questions about that because then you're evil and sort of being in this circle where any woman who's gender non-conforming is obviously not a woman. It's very easy to gain that idea. I think that even older people theorising about it can understand conceptually, but being in that space it's a very difficult mindset to get out of. And I've been really lucky, I have some radical feminist friends who've been really nice but since I discovered and understood radical feminism - I'm skipping around this story but it's fine.

I recently lost my entire friend group. So I go to college but I lost all of my friends because they were like, actually, you having three separate opinions from me means that you're unsafe and are equivalent to a nazi. Because obviously, saying that lesbians can have sexual boundaries is the same thing as kill all Jewish people. You know, it's obviously the same statement. I don't know how anyone can see it differently.

But - OK, going front to back - being part of that environment and being a lesbian and having it be not a socially acceptable thing in these spaces that are intended for same sex attracted people - it's just extremely damaging and you start to think, well, maybe I'm not a woman. I don't feel like a woman, I don't look like the women around me, you know. And being a woman is deeply traumatising.

I think almost every trans female that I know, especially detransitioned women like myself - I got a double mastectomy - we are all - a lot of us are autistic and don't fit into gender roles and don't really understand it and we're absolutely preyed upon in that sort of way. And almost all of us have experienced sexual trauma and just being a woman and experiencing things like that makes you disgusted with your body and not want men to think about you, not want to be - it's just so profoundly traumatising.

And when you're given this option of, you can escape misogyny, you can escape experiencing things like this again, even though that's not true - women who pass as men, as soon as men find out - I mean I'm friends with a lot of other detransitioned women and a reasonable number of them pass as men in their daily lives - and as soon as someone finds out they're going to be treated with violent misogyny, right? And so it's a complete lie, but it's a very enticing lie.

And even speaking about the potential side effects, even if you're like, I support the decision that you're making but I want you to take into account the ways that this will cause damage in a genuinely informed consent way. I mean I'm against - you know what I mean. That's just not something that happens.

Additionally - so when I was going to get my double mastectomy after identifying as trans for four years, I just had to go to a doctor, say 'I'm trans and I want top surgery' and then they're like, OK, you know, then they'll ask me some questions about my life, but there's no like, maybe you're a lesbian who doesn't want to be seen as a lesbian because you live in a homophobic area, maybe you're dealing with - you need to deal with some sexual trauma. Maybe there's other things, other than this sort of idea. There's none of that, it's just like, OK! And so then the next time they were just like, OK I'll write a letter to your insurance saying they should pay for it.

You know, it's just - women are really being let down, especially lesbians.

And I don't know, it's just very - going on what you were saying? I just feel so bad about my peers because it's very hard to get out of. It's such a cult-like mindset because if you talk to anyone different you are going to be excommunicated, right? You're just not going to be allowed to interact with people. I mean it's like my friends who just dropped me, you know, it's really difficult - I don't know if I'm over my time limit - I just, I don't know, when people were saying about how it's really hard as a young person to not be accepted by your peers - it is terrifying, it is so ... scary, but it's really an important thing because so many women I know, every lesbian I know in my day to day life who's not a complete normie who's never been online, has identified as trans, even if they haven't transitioned, has previously identified as trans.

Because it's just - being a lesbian sucks, guys.

I mean it's wonderful once you're able to accept it and interact with other women, but this is a terrifying societal position to occupy and I'm completely proud and out now but it's just a really scary thing because these people who are supposed to be supporting you would rather you be anything but a lesbian."

threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3490776-Women-Stand-Up-in-Washington-D-C

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3507109-Pique-Resilience-Project-young-detransitioned-women-sharing-their-personal-stories

NoseringGirl · 16/02/2019 18:47

Back in my teenage years, I used to read 'pro ana' (pro eating disorder) sites and forums. Everyone would write their weights and it was always followed with the words 'gross, I know'. It just connects in my head with disordered thinking. Thinking something about your own body is 'gross'.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 16/02/2019 18:44

It’s the kids if thing a five year old would say ‘eeeooooow, willies! Yukky!’

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 16/02/2019 18:35

I'm quite disturbed by their description of seeing newborn genitals being "gross".

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 16/02/2019 17:52

We need to be clear - gender isn’t a ‘thing’ it’s just an airy fairy idea of how men and women should look and act. Why should this matter with regard to your rights? It shouldn’t.

Sex is another matter all together. It’s Biology, it’s science - it’s real and it does matter with regards to your rights.

So why are we debating the equivalent of whether Alien could kick Predators backside in an intergalactic fight?

R0wantrees · 16/02/2019 17:36

Fox and Owl have had considerable media access and influence. Recent article demonstrates that Owl (Ugla Stefanía Kristjönudóttir Jónsdóttir) is also influencing policy in Iceland.

Both Fox and Owl changed their gender identities from trans man /woman to include the 'Non-Binary' descriptor.

'Iceland Set To Make Major Changes To Law Affecting Trans, Intersex And Non-Binary People'
(extract)
"The draft of a bill currently being prepared for Parliament would make several long-overdue changes to Icelandic law regarding trans, intersex and non-binary people. Grapevine spoke with two of the people who helped craft the legislation, who see it as a tremendously positive step that could put Iceland well ahead of the pack in these areas.

The draft in question, which is to be submitted by the Prime Minister at an as yet undetermined time, covers numerous facets of gender identity.

The broad strokes

If passed into law, people will be allowed to change their registered gender without having to endure a lengthy journey through the health care system. This change will only be permitted one time, barring exceptional circumstances. As it is now, changing one’s gender in the National Registry can involve having to meet with psychiatrists and other health care workers over a period of several months before approval. Furthermore, should this draft become law, registered gender will not be limited solely to male or female, either—people will also have the option of selecting a non-binary gender, which will be marked as “X” in passports. For the purposes of the draft, non-binary people are defined as trans." (continues)

Grapevine spoke with two of the people who helped construct the draft, chairperson of Intersex Iceland Kitty Anderson and writer and trans activist Ugla Stefanía Kristjönudóttir Jónsdóttir, who see this draft as just the beginning. (continues)

grapevine.is/news/2019/02/12/iceland-set-to-make-major-changes-to-law-affecting-trans-intersex-and-non-binary-people/?fbclid=IwAR14YknQkyLva03tr4VF94tzAsQhwDKkStEzSk2WFfHnN9Mb_-vYzvjlMWc

VickyEadie · 16/02/2019 17:33

Genitals gross? That is so messed up. Why is it in the interests of children to encourage them to feel distaste for their genitals?

I was 9 when my brother was born and saw his little todger on a daily basis. I didn't think it was gross at all, but perfectly natural.

Encouraging children to see genitals as "gross" is very, very manipulative.

DonaldTwain · 16/02/2019 17:17

Genitals gross? That is so messed up. Why is it in the interests of children to encourage them to feel distaste for their genitals?

NotTerfNorCis · 16/02/2019 17:17

gross, we know!

They're trying to spread the idea that associating male/female with genitalia is gross and creepy, and only a gross creep would do such a thing.

StealthPolarBear · 16/02/2019 17:15

Hey I assigned my DD as a girl all by myself, no training needed! Hadn't realised I was so talented.
I've just realised what their names are making me think of. Oh fox, oh owl, don't you know, there's no such thing as a gruffalo

Thingybob · 16/02/2019 17:09

I've just been on Amazon and there are several pages that can be read online via Look Inside.(No way would I buy the book) My review so far is that it is utter bollocks.

My highlight in the first couple of pages is;

'This means when we're born, medical professionals take a look at our genitals (gross, we know!), classify us as male or female and assign us the gender 'boy' or 'girl' according to what they see down below'

Where to start? Well first up what is gross about a babies genitals? Babies are not born with modesty, toilet trained or able to dress themselves so they have their genitals on display to numerous people for several years and no normal person bats an eyelid or thinks it 'gross'. Sorry Fox and Owl but the 'gross' comment makes you sound creepy.

Next when babies are born everyone in the room can see what sex the child is and no medical professional present (usually a midwife) has ever had training in identifying sex. The initial observations (APGAR) done on a baby have nothing to do with sex.

Finally it is the family and social groups that 'assign' gender and gender expectations on a baby, not NHS staff.

Amazon has several more pages of absolute waffle e.g. Gender is so complicated and impossible to define. Then 'Intersex' gets a mention by page 14. The last sentence on that page starts 'There are over 40 different......' I know how it is going to continue but luckily Amazon has page 15 missing to protect my blood pressure.

Anlaf · 16/02/2019 17:05

Ooh excellent thread, thank you.

I once watched most of fox's youtube channel content, including a piece where fox - then a young lesbian called Rachel - talked movingly of being a victim of sexual abuse as a child.

zen1 · 16/02/2019 17:02

So they talk about gender being a social construct, but then say ‘trans people don’t identify with the gender they were assigned at birth’?

DodoPatrol · 16/02/2019 16:36

Is everyone else getting an advert saying ‘Transform your body! £3 a week’

Or is it just that my phone has w weird sense of humour?

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 16/02/2019 16:23

Doing talks at schools...

StealthPolarBear · 16/02/2019 16:09

Do these people have jobs? I always wonder how these navel gazers pay the mortgage and put food on the table

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 16/02/2019 16:02

So they have made a very very minority life decision and are going around trying to persuade kids to do the same? On what planet?