Veritas report due tomorrow (Thursday) at midday re: Aimee Challenor

And, of course, it doesn't. It's spread over government departments and split into children (education department), vulnerable adults (social services, QCC), charities (Charity Commission), etc.

I think this has always been a flaw. The ability to pass the buck so that no one is ultimately responsible or accountable.

Which is exactly why we need robust safeguarding frameworks that protect everybody who is not dangerous or abusive (including trans people).

YY.

Someone asked me yesterday (they're Australian) whether or not the UK has a centralised regulator for safeguarding. And, of course, it doesn't. It's spread over government departments and split into children (education department), vulnerable adults (social services, QCC), charities (Charity Commission), etc.

I think we need such a regulator with overarching powers. An OfSafe, as it were.

It's far beyond "woke points", it's something bigger.

Can you imagine Stonewall now? They've got someone on their advisory panel who has been officially designated as not understanding the first thing about safeguarding, and probably never will.

Stonewall clearly do not understand Safeguarding.
Its a systemic failure.

December 2018
OP TheLWordNotTheQWord wrote:
"The National Lottery, Stonewall and Gay Conversion Therapy:

The National Lottery have give half a million pounds of funding to Stonewall to fund trans leaders in "influencing" the public. One of these is Morgan Page a transwoman (ie a male who identifies as being a woman) who has run workshops advising other male people who identify as lesbians on "overcoming the cotton ceiling":

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1063148/national-lottery-funding-stonewall-500k-morgan-page-Aimee-Challenor-david-davis-mermaids

The "cotton ceiling" represents the barrier of lesbians' underwear (because lesbians won't have sex with them due to them being male penis-havers). A number of transactivists campaign against this, calling lesbians bigoted and "vagina fetishists" for not being willing to have sex with them and this individual ran workshops to help other male individuals to "identify the barriers and strategise ways to overcome them":

fairplayforwomen.com/lesbians-erasure-feminism-6/

How is training males on how to overcome women's boundaries and pressure lesbians to have sex with penises not a) rapey as hell and b) gay conversion therapy by another name?

Why the hell are the National Lottery and Stonewall funding this individual?"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3462846-The-National-Lottery-Stonewall-and-Gay-Conversion-Therapy

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3458618--494-000-more-funding-for-Stonewall-from-the-Big-Lottery-Fund

R0wantrees

I know what you mean - it feels like it goes beyond 'woke points' and is part of some attempt to remake society (in whose image I do not know).

Then I reread my own comments and wonder if I'm becoming Grassy Knollington (of Viz fame). Disturbing times.

I also think that there is much going on than that TRAs are accorded apparently unfettered power and influence by political parties than just the 'woke points'

Can you imagine Stonewall now? They've got someone on their advisory panel who has been officially designated as not understanding the first thing about safeguarding, and probably never will. Whose friendships and predilections are very dodgy.

And yet this person is probably privy to all sorts of conversations that Stonewall would rather not be made public.

If they suspend them, AC will claim transphobia and could trash them to kingdom come.

So will they have to keep someone who dropped a bomb on their credibility?

I can safely say I wouldn't ever employ someone like AC, Lily Madigan or Sarah Brown. To me, their credibility is quite obviously zero. Minus numbers in fact. So, to me, it is a bit of a mystery how they manage to gain any kind of power at all.

I also think that there is much going on than that TRAs are accorded apparently unfettered power and influence by political parties than just the 'woke points'

Indeed.

Stephen Whittle (influential Women's & Equalities 'expert adviser', law proffessor, Press for Change co-founder, TRA etc) also demonstrated that he didn't understand Safeguarding with his use of suicide.
SW, In hindsight I should not have said that - but the Samaritan's guidelines never cross my mind.

When challenged he recognised this specific issue and Samaritan's guidance.
I am unconvinced that he has any understanding of Safeguarding though any more than any other TRA who prioritises 'rights' :
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3397010-Guardian-article-on-MPs-concern-with-GRA?pg=4

This is a systemic failure within transactivism

There's a lot of manipulation going on, a massive absence of critical thinking (see Layla Moran and 'seeing souls' rather than sex who had been 'inspired' by Helen Belcher), misogyny, confirmation bias etc etc

Yes. It's much more complex than goodies vs baddies or conspiracy vs cock-up.

Which is exactly why we need robust safeguarding frameworks that protect everybody who is not dangerous or abusive (including trans people).

Significant recent thread which considers the lobbying by transactivists, Press for Change etc and policy/legislation implications over ten years ago:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

heresyandwitchcraft commented:
That 2007 thread! This has been going on for a long time.... and some prominent transsexuals really seem to have been deliberately strategising to get to where we are today

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?pg=15

DC was also a helper at a girls' gym club at one stage, as I recall. Social services should have had a good overview of all the different groups he was involved with and alerted them when the children were taken into care.

Yes, but at the top level I think it's quite possible that the woke points for youth votes and being "inclusive" are the main motivating factors.

There's a lot of manipulation going on, a massive absence of critical thinking (see Layla Moran and 'seeing souls' rather than sex who had been 'inspired' by Helen Belcher), misogyny, confirmation bias etc etc

And of course political opportunism.

I also think that there is much going on than that TRAs are accorded apparently unfettered power and influence by political parties than just the 'woke points'

Yes, but at the top level I think it's quite possible that the woke points for youth votes and being "inclusive" are the main motivating factors. I'm not saying it's not important or that more powerful people than Madigan/Challenor aren't deliberately pushing a deeper agenda within the party, or that they aren't under pressure from lobbying organisations like Stonewall.

Isn't this just a shift though?
Previously TRAs campaigners lobbied behind the scenes.
It seems very likely that those such as Sarah Brown (Stonewall and LibDems) have supported/guided/influenced younger TRAs such as Aimee Challenor, Lily Madigan etc

2013 Guardian article about Press For Change interviewed Sarah Brown, Stephen Whittle, Paris Lees Christine Burns etc

(extracts)
"Much of their campaigning remained on the quiet. The passage of the 2004 law to give trans people legal status was "remarkable," says [Christine] Burns, because "the government was able to pass an entire act in parliament without anyone throwing a fit in the press". In popular culture, the activists became more forthcoming in their attempts to increase popular understanding of trans issues." (continues)

"This is a source of personal heartache, but [Sarah] Brown is convinced that trans people's biggest single problem is access to decent healthcare. Within 24 hours of her creating the hashtag #transdocfail, she had been inundated with 2,000 tweets of trans people's negative experiences at the hands of medical professionals. "It revealed a massive level of abuse. If it was happening to any other minority it would be on the national news," says Brown. Another ongoing battle for trans people is to revise the World Health Organisation's International Classification of Diseases (ICD) so that transsexuality is not listed as a mental illness. (Ironically, this was added to the ICD around the time homosexuality was removed; campaigners such as Burns say it is useful to be in the ICD to help trans people access healthcare but it should be "less stigmatising".) (continues)

"In 25 years, [James] Barrett has seen trans people become "a networked bunch" – more so than other people, he thinks – thanks to the internet. [Paris] Lees, who also works for Trans Media Action, says social media is the "essential catalyst" for the transformation of trans people in society. "Society is in transition and we've woken up from the operation and there's no going back. We can't pretend that trans people don't exist any more," she says. "People have been taking the piss out of trans people for 60 years. The narrative on trans issues has been controlled by people who have no understanding of them. Social media is about us grabbing the narrative back and telling our own stories – this is our reality, this is what we go through and this is what matters to us. We're here, we're in your face, we definitely exist. That's the most important thing – realising we exist." (continues)

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

Yes I agree it's a cross party issue, just that Madigan and Challenor are similar in that they are both very young and have been given a lot of mainstream publicity/exposure on a national level in a way that someone like Sarah Brown hasn't.

I'm not sure of the correct terminology but a back to work type organisation (one that forces long term unemployed to do voluntary work) placed a man with us at work. Our own safeguarding procedures meant he was never in contact with children, but we are a public space. He disappeared one day. Jail. For possessing child abuse images.

A dbs check wouldn't have uncovered him, as it was a first time offence

I think there should be some kind of trigger list for pending accusations. The scouts will not have known! And they dbs everyone who steps foot in the place (in my experience).
All organisations, check check check your safeguarding procedures. It's on the ground stuff that matters most.

Oh and fuck you Aimee for not telling those organisations clearly what that monster was accused of

I also think that there is much going on than that TRAs are accorded apparently unfettered power and influence by political parties than just the 'woke points'

Like madigan, they use their position to campaign solely on trans issues.

Neither are fit for office.

And the Green Party, like Labour, let them do it for woke points.

The same is true for individuals in The Conservative Party, Liberal Democrats and SNP. Its a cross-party & cross organisational issue.

ReflectentMonatomism

You seem to be forcing simplistic binary positions for 'arguments sake'. There is a need for nuance.

For example it is recognised and understood that some people who are bullied bully others (though not all), some people who are abused, abuse others (though not the majority)

I’ve also never seen AC campaign on green issues.

Like madigan, they use their position to campaign solely on trans issues.

Neither are fit for office.

And the Green Party, like Labour, let them do it for woke points.

That speaks to me of a) a quite staggering level of self-delusion and self-aggrandisement
b) hyper-woke organisations so painfully keen to scramble onto the bandwagon that they'd promise the world on a platter to this person in return for having them as a figurehead.. and
c) truly grotesque levels of dysfunction in said organisations.

a selection of current threads which demonstrate similar themes:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3476462-Morgane-Oger-SEX-does-not-exist

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3476791-Drag-kid-photographed-with-NAKED-adult-drag-queen

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3432767-Lily-Madigan-and-the-School-Saga

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3432767-Lily-Madigan-and-the-School-Saga

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3475851--Dont-be-an-asshole-tour-intends-to-making-gyms-trans-friendly

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3474880-I-used-the-girls-room-for-the-first-time-today

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3474980-British-Man-Who-Fell-Pregnant-Warns-Other-Males-That-Giving-Birth-Is-Really-Hard

AC is in a non-traditional relationship with people who are much older than AC

There is a small amount of mileage, yardage really, in the argument that were AC a more sympathetic figure the villains would be the parents and then the “friends”, as almost all AC’s associated appear to be sexual predators of various forms. By that reading, the young boy was a victim and everything since then is consequences.

But the overall narcissism and revelling in things makes thetbline hard to sustain. AC has moral agency, especially as the initial abuser is in gaol.

AC is in a non-traditional relationship with people who are much older than AC. They assist AC with writing articles and social media.

Who is really pulling the strings now that DC is in jail?

Verita were only investigating within a limited and specific brief from The Green Party.
There were clear parallels with Coventry Pride.

Ah okay, thanks Terfing - i am surprised Verita did not pick it up given that they contacted Coventry Pride.