Letter in the Times - Plea To The Trans Lobby from group of transsexuals

It is extraordinary the way that TRA control the narrative around all of the political parties.
It seeems to to be a massive DARVO

'How a narcissist uses DARVO & how to Protect yourself'

"A narcissistic HCP [High Conflict Person] typically engages in a lot of all-or-nothing thinking, unmanaged emotions, and extreme behavior. This often takes the form of constant insults, putting themselves up by putting others down, identifying themselves as winners and everyone else as losers, and repeatedly demanding admiration from those around them."
www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/5-types-people-who-can-ruin-your-life/201802/are-you-target-blame-narcissist

www.yourtango.com/experts/judith_tutin/5-ways-spot-when-narcissist-ues-darvo-make-himself-the-victim-in-relationships

The loud and shouty protesting TRAs are a smokescreen while the real TRA work goes on behind doors as it always has. We know what Whittle and Burns and Press for Change did, we know how they operate and we'd be mad to ignore history and be blindsided by wolves in sheep's clothing who try and make alliances.

TG and TS rights conflict with women's rights. We cannot be allies.

This. I think there is some room for common cause with some TS people on some things.

But, as outlined over and over again in this thread, TS people have been front and centre in the movement to remove women's rights. The shouty TGs are, really, just their useful idiots. And this thread itself has shown that even some of the signatories of this letter don't give a flying fuck about women.

If we want the useful idiots to stop threatening violence on behalf of the puppeteers, we have to stop the puppeteers. And a large number of those are TS.

It's important to realise that activism takes many forms, and it isn't just threats of violence that are dangerous.

re attacks on academics by trans rights activists:
Times article Spetember 2018, Lucy Bannerman
'Trans Goldsmiths lecturer Natacha Kennedy behind smear campaign against academics'
(extract)
"A transgender lecturer orchestrated a smear campaign against academics across the UK in which universities were described as dangerous and accused of “hate crime” if they refused to accept activists’ views that biological males can be women, it can be revealed.

Natacha Kennedy, a researcher at Goldsmiths University of London who is also understood to work there under the name Mark Hellen, faces accusations of a “ludicrous” assault on academic freedom after she invited thousands of members of a closed Facebook group to draw up and circulate a list shaming academics who disagreed with campaigners’ theories on gender.

The online forum, seen by The Times, also revealed that members plotted to accuse non-compliant professors of hate crime to try to have them ousted from their jobs. Reading, Sussex, Bristol, Warwick and Oxford universities were among those deemed to have “unsafe” departments because they employed academics who had publicly disputed the belief that “transwomen are women” or questioned the potential impact of proposed changes to gender laws on women and children.

Ms Kennedy said that the list was necessary so students could avoid accepting a place on a “dangerous” course.

Aimee Challenor, the former Green Party candidate who used her father as her election agent even though he was facing charges of raping and torturing a ten-year-old girl, for which he was later jailed, was among those who responded to Ms Kennedy’s post of August 14 to the Trans Rights UK Facebook group, with suggestions of who to blacklist. All the named academics were women.

Members of the group claimed that the philosophy department of the University of Sussex was “clearly an unsafe environment” because of the presence of Kathleen Stock, a professor who has argued against redefining the category of woman and lesbian to include men.

“File a hate crime report against her, and then the chairman and vice-chair,” advised one. “Drag them over the f*ing coals.” (continues)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-goldsmiths-lecturer-natacha-kennedy-behind-smear-campaign-against-academics-f2zqbl222?shareToken=c2e850050d0c9913ecbcbbb9b0e9ccfb

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3359116-The-Times-smear-campaign-by-trans-lecturer-at-Goldsmiths

It's important to realise that activism takes many forms, and it isn't just threats of violence that are dangerous.

Absolutely.
Whilst the overt attacks on Professor Rosa Freedman are easy to condemn, she is also being attacked and slurred by senior academics who are trans rights activists such as Prof Sally Hines (Leeds University)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3433528-sally-hines-accuses-professor-rosa-freedman-of-being-mean-on-twitter

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3443107-Shocking-bullying-of-gender-critical-law-professor-Rosa-Freedman

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3452863-Sally-Hines-is-writing-female-out-of-feminism-Im-terrified

So too there has been bullying, attempts at intimidation and silencing of Prof Kathleen Stock and other women in academia speaking up.

Professor Stock was targetted by the CEO of an anti-bullying charity Liam Hackett (Ditch the Label).
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3289890-great-piece-by-academic-kathleen-stock-mentions-mn?pg=8

That his 'trans-rights activism' involves targetting and atempting to silence individual women, women's groups and female-centred social media platforms discussing the law, women's rights and child protection concerns is very concerning.

Important to remember Liam Hackett also used his influence & social media platform to try to bully a breast screening department into changing its women-only in the waiting room for scans policy.

Male-pattern controlling behaviour, entitlement & misogyny:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3299191-A-new-member-of-the-Leftie-Misogynists-club

Also, I'm worried about the normalisation of male people in previously female only spaces, because it stops women and girls being able to define their boundaries.

It's important to realise that activism takes many forms, and it isn't just threats of violence that are dangerous.

Shami Chakrabarti has key and significant influence within the Labour party, especially it seems at leadership level.

She was on the Question Time Panel when Paris Lees was afforded so much power and influence. Fully affirmative stating 'transwomen are women'
(I think this was just after #ManFriday had burst through the media silence & no debate)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3195645-BBC-Question-Time-Paris-Lees

Liberty have got it seriously wrong before in prioritising adults' rights-based approach over safeguarding and child protection conflicts.
BBC 2014 article
'How did the pro-paedophile group PIE exist openly for 10 years?'

"The Paedophile Information Exchange was affiliated to the National Council for Civil Liberties - now Liberty - in the late 1970s and early 1980s. But how did pro-paedophile campaigners operate so openly?

A gay rights conference backs a motion in favour of paedophilia. The story is written up by a national newspaper as "Child-lovers win fight for role in Gay Lib".

It sounds like a nightmarish plotline from dystopian fiction. But this happened in the UK. The conference took place in Sheffield and the newspaper was the Guardian. The year was 1975.

It's part of the story of how paedophiles tried to go mainstream in the 1970s. The group behind the attempt - the Paedophile Information Exchange - is back in the news because of a series of stories run by the Daily Mail about Labour deputy leader Harriet Harman.

The Daily Mail has revisited the story of PIE to ask how much Harman and her husband the MP Jack Dromey knew about the group during their time working at the National Council for Civil Liberties, now Liberty, in the late 1970s. PIE was affiliated to the NCCL from the late 1970s to early 1980s.

Many of the revelations are not in fact new. The story's return to the front pages demonstrates the shock people feel about how a group with "paedophile" in its name could operate so openly for so long.

PIE was formed in 1974. It campaigned for "children's sexuality". It wanted the government to axe or lower the age of consent. It offered support to adults "in legal difficulties concerning sexual acts with consenting 'under age' partners". The real aim was to normalise sex with children.

Journalist Christian Wolmar remembers their tactics. "They didn't emphasise that this was 50-year-old men wanting to have sex with five-year-olds. They presented it as the sexual liberation of children, that children should have the right to sex," he says." (continues)

If there was anything with the word 'liberation' in the name you were automatically in favour of it if you were young and cool in the 1970s. It seemed like PIE had slipped through the net
Matthew Parris, columnist

www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26352378

The loud and shouty protesting TRAs are a smokescreen while the real TRA work goes on behind doors as it always has.

It is extraordinary the way that TRA control the narrative around all of the political parties.
It seeems to to be a massive DARVO

The Westminster Social Policy Forum 'Next Steps for Trans Equality' June 2018 demonstrated the levels of influence.

Very senior placed representatives discussed many of the issues discussed here including media, schools, prisons, health, policy & legislation etc

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3268237-Westminster-Social-Policy-forum-today-Next-steps-for-transgender-Equality-WSPFEvents

Relevent to the current expose of Mermaids charity by The Sunday Times, is that when Dr Polly Carmichael (NHS GIDS) made her speech, many of the active TwitterTRA were hostile and critical. This included representatives from some trans rights charities & organisations including TELI, Mermaids etc

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3268237-Westminster-Social-Policy-forum-today-Next-steps-for-transgender-Equality-WSPFEvents

How does Shami envision in this scenario that ‚locking the house too tightly‘ might get women ‚killed in the fire?‘ What specific threats for women does Shami see in sex segregated spaces? (Except for some TRAs literally setting fire on them while chanting ‚die in a Fire, TERFs!‘)

AIBU that I want politicians, who use nonsensical killer phrases and metaphors in order to stop debate, to be fined, each time they do it? Something like 25% of their salary would be reasonable, I think, so that doing it 4 times a month will leave them penniless for the month.
Might also increase their understanding of the challenges their austerity brings to the people they ‚serve‘.

Shami Chakrabarti

Of course it's good to highlight and condemn extreme behaviour. It's never right to attempt to stop people meeting and talking by intimidation and violence.

The problem with only focusing on these examples is that it is extreme behaviour by a few people who do not hold any direct power or influence.

When people in the media, policians and policy makers, using less extreme language and no platforming, paint women as bigots for wanting sex segregation, it is dangerous, because these people can remove sex segregation and safeguarding policies.

I'm far more concerned that Shami Chakrabart said
"How can I put it - I am not the sex police. I don't want to police the borders between these segregated sexes and I'm not going to say to any refugee or migrant to my sex that you don't belong over here. And you know what, if you lock the house too tightly, you might just die in the fire. And what I want is not to be more segregated but to be less so, and I want us, in the end, to all be human."

than I am that some random 18 year old wearing a scarf over their face and holding a placard.

Also, I'm worried about the normalisation of male people in previously female only spaces, because it stops women and girls being able to define their boundaries.

It's important to realise that activism takes many forms, and it isn't just threats of violence that are dangerous.

yes, Rownatrees, lets do that.

Lets discuss it, though. Actually discuss, not just make broad statements bout how awful they are, that anybody could agree with, and leave it at that.

"They" are not be just one body, who all know each other, and plan things together.Just as " Feminists" or " Transsexuals" are not one coherent group, the TRAs are not. And they are young and many are immature. Can that weakness be used to divide and defeat them?

Lets discuss, perhaps, ways in which the less extreme ones could be encouraged to " peel off", and be "educated". Or ways in which the worst offenders can be be identified and prosecuted or otherwise discouraged.

I would much rather do that than spend time trying to defend myself and others like me against what they would probably see as " in house " attacks, and then get accused of making it " all about me" for defending myself.

There were less at the Reading WPUK meeting; is that because Bristol is a particular centre of those ideas, or is it because some are getting bored with what they thought was a "fun game". Will it be just a hard core who carry on with the nonsense?

It would be good to be able to discuss the focus of the letter eg the treatment of women (adult human females) by trans activists.

Perhaps tomorrow?

from the open letter in The Times signed by some people who are transsexuals:

we condemn the threats, harassment and intimidation of women who argue that sex-based protections are vital in a society still punctuated by sexism. Women are oppressed because of their sex, not some metaphysical gender identity. We are concerned that women are being dehumanised as “TERFs” (trans-exclusionary radical feminists) in order for abusive males to unleash misogynistic rhetoric and violent abuse with impunity.

Women are oppressed because of their sex, not some metaphysical gender identity

woman
female
daughter
mother
grandmother
lesbian

I really think this thread is lacking enough unnecessary autobiographical details. Can anyone add some more?

Women who care about male bodies in sex segregated spaces have "hangups".

See what I mean about the similarities to the bloke who commented on women in prison "enjoying conflict"?

re weriseup's post 19.56.43

Re grandparent's role, where one may be transsexual.

Most people tend to think that in practice the person who does the grandaddying, or the grannying, is to the child the grandad or granny.

Even if they are not a blood relation. One of my children's granddads, a man who did a splendid job, had never had kids of his own. One of their "actual " grandparents was useless, and had no contact with them.

All my grandchildren have only ever known me in the female social role, so to them it is not an issue. This seems to be a common experience. In my case, I adore my grandchildren, and am the fittest and most available for babysitting / picking up from school, etc.

Children are very accepting of varied families that these days are often not at all "traditionally standard", aren't they? . Two mothers, two fathers, multiple step parents and step siblings. As a species, we are adaptable. If the right love and care is there, the child generally grows up happy and confident. They do not care a fig for adult hangups,and why should they? .

Sorry for the bold fail. I’ll go away and work on it.

Kay Thank you for your response to my post.

*KayM2

badstyley;
Bloody good post. Very fair.....*

Then Kay. Kay Kay Kay Kay

*except for one thing...…

I am NOT trying to dominate. I just aren't. I have no wish to, or ability to ,dominate. I am a quietly spoken, halting, sometimes stammering, booky person who is not now nor ever has been a " domineering " type. And I'm acutely socially phobic.

What obviously looks to you and others like an attempt to dominate is, to me, an attempt to defend myself, and other like me, from what I see as unfair and prejudiced treatment My style, I'm afraid is didactic. I left school at 16, and got my education from books!*

Thank you for demonstrating my point.

yes, clearly the women here objecting to the boundary pushing on show are women who ' choose to make an issue of the matter because they are the sort of women who enjoy conflict. '

right?

I am shit hot at crochet (also modest about it, natch!) and was taught by my bestest auntie. It's probably the only stereotypically girly thing I'm any good at and every time I make something, I think of her. She was the best.

AAK is right. Love your rellies!

(Unless they compel your speech and go into full-on narc meltdown if you fail to comply.)

Thing is, what Kay is saying is basically just a more polite version of what that guy said about the way the women in prison - we're meant to just shut up and accept whatever it's decided is going to happen to our spaces, and if we object we're the problem.

Thank you for the link r0wan

Just responding, its a discussion.
I always try to read carefully what's said.