Letter in the Times - Plea To The Trans Lobby from group of transsexuals

As transsexual people we are dismayed by the escalation in harassment, threats and abuse directed at women and women’s groups in the name of “transgender rights activism” (“Trans lobby sent me death threats, claims professor”, Dec 6). In the past few years violent rhetoric on social media has spilt over into real life too often.

See attempted online bullying and intimidation of Martina Navratilova by Dr Rachel McKinnon.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3455445-Martina-Navratilova-states-the-obvious

Times article
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/navratilova-trades-volleys-with-trans-athlete-in-twitter-row-zhc0tq0bl?shareToken=3a2ceaf621ccb02c248a24089687b783

Dr McKinnon has demonstrated male-pattern coercive control behaviours previously.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3411070-Rachael-McKinnon-another-gem-from-the-you-couldnt-make-it-up-guidebook

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3400461-Rachel-McKinnon-story-has-made-the-Daily-Mail

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3454291-Rachel-McKinnon-on-Radio-Five-Live

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3395368-That-a-male-just-won-a-women-s-cycling-World-Championship

article worth reading
'50 Shades Of Gaslighting: Disturbing Signs An Abuser Is Twisting Your Reality'
by Avatar Shahida Arabi
(extracts)

1. Shaming and Emotional Invalidation.

1. Pathologizing the Victim.

Similarly, as victims of psychological violence get closer to the precipice of truth, the man (or woman) behind the curtain creates a great deal of noise to divert their victims from ever seeing what is beneath the surface of their façade and grandiose claims of authenticity. The noise malignant narcissists create instead refocuses on attacking the credibility of the victim rather than addressing their own crimes.

Triangulation (in the context of gaslighting) can be used to confirm the abuser’s version of reality and shame you into believing that you truly are alone in your beliefs and perceptions. It fuels a victim’s sense of alienation when another person (or a group of people – such as the narcissist’s harem) agrees with his or her distortions.

Malignant narcissists are prone to recruiting what the survivor community refers to as “flying monkeys” to agree with their perspective. They may bring these people in physically to confirm their point of view"

thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2017/11/50-shades-of-gaslighting-the-disturbing-signs-an-abuser-is-twisting-your-reality/

Trannsexual people do not have to " ask the permissions" of women to become as nearly as we can, female.

I’d like to pick up on this because I think there’s an important point and distinction here.

1. Nobody needs anybody’s permission to look, dress and present as they wish. This I think is often used as an argument because it’s seen as a threat to the existence of the self. ‘You’re denying we exist’ etc. So no, you don’t need anyone’s permission to look as much like a women or man as possible (I’m using the generic you here.) you exist. You present how you want. How you live as an individual is none of my business. Until it impacts on the rights of others.

But there’s a leap in the thinking next - that this then means one is entitled to access single sex provisions. And that is the leap from individual freedom to impact on others. But taking steps to make oneself look or present differently do not make one cross over into the opposite sex class. You (and again I’m using the generic you, this isn’t aimed at an individual) are still the sex you always have been, and where sex segregation matters, you are still the original sex. Crossing that boundary is crossing from legitimate self express and fulfilment into impinging on others. That’s where your rights stop

Miranda clearly gets this and is capable of separating the two concepts. I suspect a couple of other regular posters on here are too.

Others are not (again, I’m talking in generic terms and pointing no fingers at any individuals on this thread, but this has happened multiple times on other threads) the two concepts are conflated, either deliberately as a debating tactic/wedge argument or as an argument pushed at transpeople themselves to encourage them to not separate the concepts and thus to see any opposition to them entering single sex provision as a threat to the self

And again. Speaking in [generics]
It is jarring to hear men debate among themselves which of them is allowed into women’s spaces because they are most womanly. It would be absurd if it wasnt such a potential threat.

I see so many deliberate twisting of logic in the tra movement. You could write a treatise on the rhetorical techniques and psychological techniques. And I’m sure someone will one day

( if women are still allowed to read and write.)

Bowl Thank you, it is really very important point and distinction,

Anyway today is a good day, people have kindly been in touch, the sun is out here, and a local robin has just begun visiting my garden again.

I have much to be grateful for with what has happened recently If I can be of any help next year, I am more than happy to provide it.

So glad to hear this & thank you for posting.
There was only concern.

Its an important thing for us all to remember that when things feel overwhelming, 'this too shall pass' the sun will come out, robins will appear at Christmas and there is the possibility of good /better things.
Best wishes

Dive bomb

Though a drive bombing robin would have been just as funny

Little robin reliant

We had a robin in our garage

It used to drive bomb my dads bald head when he turned on the light

Happy times

a local robin has just begun visiting my garden again.

Don't be taken in by their cuteness, they're vicious little bastards!

Glad to hear this, Leanne.

I'm so sorry if I caused anger and concern with my emotionally-charged post yesterday, I didn't mean to be that heavy. Guess it just all poured out, the feeling of isolation can be overwhelming sometimes.

Anyway today is a good day, people have kindly been in touch, the sun is out here, and a local robin has just begun visiting my garden again.

I have much to be grateful for with what has happened recently. If I can be of any help next year, I am more than happy to provide it.

Love to everyone x

I agree with all you say AAK. Wording those sentences in that deliberate way without any context I find very troubling.

That Chakrabarti quote is downright alarming, given her influence. The way she's framing this shows that the reasons both TS and TG people frame their arguments in "oh poor little me don't you see how hard it is for me" terms is that it works, at least on women who've been sufficiently socialized into putting the needs of male humans first at all costs. It's manipulation on a societal scale, and wouldn't work if society's attitude to women's unhappiness and pain hadn't always been "suck it up and stop complaining".

So, going back to Bowl's excellent comment - everyone has to right to self expression, but your right to swing your first stops where it hits my face, or where your male body is in a space where I'm taking off my clothes.

Materialist Its such an important point. thank you.

To clarify, 'that focus is based on their interpretation of human rights law'

I hope Shami and the people who rely on her expertise understand this.

Unfortunately, those who are making or influencing policies seem not to.

Anyone who tallks of 'individual risk assessments' or 'case by case' decisions being sufficient when housing vulnerable females with males (regardless of gender identity) is likely not starting from a working knowledge of safeguarding frameworks.

Her focus is informed by human rights law, rather than Safeguarding frameworks which aim to identify and manage risk.

I hope Shami and the people who rely on her expertise understand this.

Karen Ingala Smith discussing the realities of women's services and refuges which includes the nature of the 'risk assessment'which is done.

It is very different to what trans rights activists and advocates appear to believe or suggest.

'A Woman's Place is speaking the Truth' (Leeds, 28th September 2018)

apolgies as I deleted the end of the sentence.

This is Shami Chakrabarti speaking about housing of male predatory and violent offenders who are transwomen in the female prison estate (discussion based on Karen White etc)

Her focus is informed by human rights law, rather than Safeguarding frameworks which aim to identify and manage risk.

Exactly this.

I’m guessing Shami will never personally need a domestic violence refuge, nor is she likely to end up in prison.

This is Shami Chakrabarti speaking about housing of male predatory and violent offenders (discussion based on Karen White's sexual assault of female prisonsers).
Domestic violence refuges are also discussed.

Shami Chakrabarti draws anaology with why racist people should not be placed in a cell with someone who may be the target of their racism. She states that the isseue is recognising the specific risks of the individual and keeping them from people who may their target for abuse.

Whilst this may seem logical on the surface it demonstrates no understanding or awareness of the full extent of male-pattern abuse & control.
If the Ministry of Justice with access to pre-sentance reports, resources and time were not able to recognise the risk presented by Karen White (who had convictions), then how might a refuge?
It fails to recognise the low reporting levels and poor rates of successful convictions as well as the specific known vulnerabilities of female prisoners ( ahigh number of whom have experienced male-pattern abuse, coercise control & violence.

Her focus is informed by human rights law, rather than Safeguarding frameworks which aim to identify and manage risk.

Besides. Leanne, nobody wants to shout at you.

We want to talk about threats against women.

I'm sorry to hear about your mum Leanne.

ll be candid. Since I lost my dear Mum I no longer care about life. If I died tomorrow it would not bother me in the slightest

I understand how much losing a mum means

But your life is probably much more important than you think, we touch peoples lives in very many ways which can be quite unknown at the time

Leanne,

I have only glanced at this thread, but actually saw the disagreements as positives. It is useful to have a moderated space within a generally polite culture to explore differences and to discover common ground. I think the past year has been tough for a lot of people, but expressing frustrations and differences has to be better than not talking.

There is an element of truth in the Tolstoy quote: Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.

And I suspect the same may apply to people who have made a difficult transsexual/gender journey.

You sound lovely. Debbie Hayton, when I met her, was interesting and easy to talk to. I would like to meet Miranda. KayM2 has quite a pugalisitc posting style, and I worry for yoounger people like Aimee Challenor and Paris Lees who have clearly had very difficult adolescents.

But that is me considering people as people. We are all much more than our sexuality or gender, and will primarily be judged on how we treat others.

My mother was always very very critical of me. Nothing I could do was right. Looking after her now she has Alzheimers has brought a freedom. She is still rude, but without the capacity to target or to hurt. I can judge myself for doing a good job, when I had more than enough justification to walk away. I don't need to factor in her views or snide comments. It took a long time to get there, but the confidence I have in knowing I am good enough, when for so long I was told I wasn't, is huge.

Your mother died suddenly, so little chance to unpick the baggage. Think of heading off to the long supportive thread on the elderly parents board (no need to mention sex or gender - equal welcome is given to men and women) or perhaps the bereavement boards (which I don't know) for wise sharing of experience and advice. I think you may be around the same age as me. There are real advantages about being invisible. No more children demanding your time, a chance to reconnect with friends who did not have families, no more hormonal cycles. Other than having to check for hairs on your chin before you go out, there is real freedom. Gardening, bridge, pottery classes, walking groups, volunteering: whatever is your thing.

And no, most people wont judge you on your sex/gender. Really not. And the ones that might: they are equally likely to judge you on your accent; skin colour or the type of car you drive.

Grief takes a long time. Looking back I suspect you will see speaking out as part of the process in asserting your own self. Plus I think as we get towards retirement age we all look back and consider the paths not taken, and ambitions not achieved. Get help where you can to be ready for a next constructive stage in your life. And absolutely don't waste it on regrets.

Sorry about the thread divert.

Leanne

And a (slightly rhetorical) question: is there no end to the ways in which Shami will sell assorted groups of people up the river?

Indeed yes.

The person who helps does not have to be a specialist, just the right person, with the right skills. I know of an excellent " person centred" therapist based in Surrey, handy for the A 3, if that is an area you can get to.

Leanne - what Betty and R0 said. Reach out for qualified help. My mother also died a couple of years ago and it is a catastrophic blow, I know.