Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rachel McKinnon on Radio Five Live

43 replies

treaclesoda · 18/12/2018 07:53

Five Live are broadcasting a 'poor me' interview with Rachel McKinnon.

RMcK says that people seem to view women's sport as something that needs protected...as if that's a bad thing.

Now interviewing a trans racing driver, which is hardly the same... Hmm

OP posts:
treaclesoda · 18/12/2018 07:57

Now the other interviewee is claiming that trans women don't have testosterone in their bodies, and it's a misconception that trans women are physically stronger.

There was no discussion, it wasn't challenged in any way.

OP posts:
Zampa · 18/12/2018 08:02

This made me so cross. No attempt to challenge either interviewee.

Qcng · 18/12/2018 08:40

Haven't heard the interview. But surel, surely most listeners, male or female, will hear this sort of thing and think "what a load of shit".

Mumfun · 18/12/2018 08:46

There is a lack of critical thinking in this country. Sadly it is the BBC broadcasting this view a supposedly balanced source of journalism. It will create sympathy in a lot of people. Disgusting that it wasnt challenged.

R0wantrees · 18/12/2018 08:55

There is a lack of critical thinking in this country

Also it seems lost research skills in what it still described as 'journalism'

Such a lack of integrity.

Whether this is because of the nature of rolling news and time pressures or fundamental principles I don't know. Likely a combination of both with additional factors.

Did this interview seem likely to to be repeated?
Can it be listened to again on catch up with a time clue ?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3296433-BBC-Bias-Collecting-Examples-here

merrymouse · 18/12/2018 09:07

Rachel McKinnon also believes that testosterone doesn't improve male sporting performance, which logically leads to the question: what does? Could it be their male arms, legs and torsos?

Anyway, it's looking like the Brazilian volleyball team will bring this issue to a head in 2020.

Rubidium · 18/12/2018 09:46

Related article from the BBC website:
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/46453958

AssassinatedBeauty · 18/12/2018 09:59

I turned it off as soon as it started as I knew it would just be a puff piece and allow unchallenged opinion to be put forward as fact. It's infuriating that people like MacKinnon keep getting airtime without any critical thought whatsoever.

merrymouse · 18/12/2018 10:04

McKinnon, who transitioned in her late-20s, says that results in "pretty radical physiological changes", with muscle mass, strength and speed all reduced. It also, claims McKinnon, "compounds ageing".

In essence, she maintains, it puts them on a similar level to women of the same size, and there are set limits to the amount of testosterone transgender athletes can have in their bodies before they compete. That is an issue currently being debated in women's athletics.

"compounding ageing" and "radical physiological changes" are irrelevant - you still can't change sex. By this logic you might as well have competitions for 'women and older or less fit men' or 'women and male athletes with a disability'.

This bit doesn't make sense either:

Critics say it is unfair to have a trans woman competing in female sport with a biologically male body, though McKinnon says that view goes against point four of the International Olympic Committee charter, which says: "The practice of sport is a human right."

Plenty of people can't take part in the Olympics, and plenty of people can't take part in some sports because of physical (or financial), limitiations, but nobody is stopping McKinnon from practicing or taking part in sport - the only issue is correct classification.

Avegemitesandwich · 18/12/2018 10:09

McKinnon kind of peak transed my DH, who has largely been sick of me going on about the issue all the time. I showed him that picture of McKinnon on the winners podium and he said he thought they were someone giving out the prizes to the women (you know like the male TDFers get their prizes given to them by women) or something and was pretty horrified. He then stood up and in a gruff voice went 'eh up ladies, I'm' ere for the bike race' and was basically laughing at how ridiculous it is that McKinnon was able to to compete against females.

They will never convince the general public that this is OK.

Needmoresleep · 18/12/2018 10:21

But why the one sided reporting. DD was a county level sports player and from mid teens was often invited to play with one of the adult womens teens. This is normal and a way of progressing good juniors. I thought is was great as she met lots of lovely supportive role models. I, and the team, would have thought twice if she faced playing a team with players with the size and strength of Hannah Mouncey or Rachel McKinnon. Since when did the BC lose interest in encouraging female participation in sport.

Not a single probing question. No challenge to the statistics. I hope the new BBC trans lead is there to ensure accurate reporting of trans issues, not just to promote them.

QuietContraryMary · 18/12/2018 10:21

McKinnon is a really vile, vile creature

treaclesoda · 18/12/2018 10:30

Rachel McKinnon also said that she had received 100,000 hostile tweets in relation to her victory. Whereas the recent case of a trans boxer who was born female and now competing as a male was treated differently.

Well yes, that boxer put themselves at risk by competing against an opponent who was likely to be stronger than them. The person most likely to suffer, physically and mentally, was that individual. Whereas taking your huge male born skeleton and muscles and competing against women means that your opponents are the ones likely to suffer. Hardly the same thing...

Brave indeed Hmm

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 18/12/2018 10:51

Rachel McKinnon also said that she had received 100,000 hostile tweets in relation to her victory

Im sure other sports men and women throughout history whose actions are perceived as cheating / not fair receive many comments to that effect.

McKinnnon is dawing a false equivilence and presenting the difference as being solely because they are a transwoman rather than a transman eg trans misogyny.

This is the hierarchy of oppression model that many transwomen use. It places them at the centre.

Transmen are afforded male privilege because 'trans men are men' etc

BettyDuMonde · 18/12/2018 10:58

I, for one, am currently silently terrified for that female- born boxer.

Not sure if it’s partly my age (I watched Michael Watson receive life-changing brain injuries live on TV) or some ingrained horror about Male bodies victimising female bodies?

My DH was ‘peaked’ by the Fallon Fox/Tamikka Brents fight so I suspect this situation has the potential to do the same - consenting to putting oneself in danger in this manner does not feel like real consent at all.

R0wantrees · 18/12/2018 11:04

I, for one, am currently silently terrified for that female- born boxer.

Yes, me too.

I had a similar reaction to (now deleted) discussion about a young female-born person's embrace of being a 'gay porn star'

andyoldlabour · 18/12/2018 11:20

@Avegemitesandwich,

"They will never convince the general public that this is OK."

Unfortunately outside of Mumsnet, there are not many places which are aware of this whole trans issue.
The reason I joined here, as a bloke, was because this is the only place where I can share similar views on this subject.
Like your DH, it was McKinnon who peak transed me, and I started a thread on a cycling forum. I was really surprised by some of the replies, saying that I was transphobic, even one of the women accused me of being bigoted.
If this is left unchecked it could well destroy women's sport.

nauticant · 18/12/2018 11:32

Oh I don't know. When there's a scandal going on in plain sight it's always interesting what aspect breaks through into the public consciousness. It's often an important side issue rather than the core of the scandal itself, in this case women's safety and safeguarding of children.

Go into a normal non-hipster pub, show these pictures around, and see what the general reaction is. The woke echo chambers will resist this until the very end but if this gets into the public consciousness their arguments about no differences between the sexes will make them look very foolish.

R0wantrees · 18/12/2018 11:35

If this is left unchecked it could well destroy women's sport.

Fairplay for Women website recently published:

'Open Letter to the International Olympic Committee by Ana Paula Henkel'
"Thirty three year old, 6′ 3″ tall Brazillian volley ball player Tifanny Abreu is expected to be one of the first male-born transgender athletes competing in the Olympics at Tokyo 2020.

New rules set by the IOC (International Olympic Committee) in 2016 now allow transgender athletes to compete in women’s sport if they can show their Testosterone levels are below the arbitrary level of 10nM for 12 months. Surgery is not required. 10nM is below the average male Testosterone range (average 23nM) but above the female average of 2.6nM.

There is currently no robust scientific evidence to show that lowering Testosterone is sufficient to fully eliminate the male competitive advantage brought to female sport by male-born transgender athletes.

Abreu started playing men’s volleyball at age 17 as Rodrigo Abreu, competing at men’s professional league level. After starting to identify as a women in 2012 and changing names to Tiffany, Abreu started playing in the women’s professional league in 2017. In less that a month, Abreu was scoring the highest number of points a game on average and then beat the record set by one of Brazil’s Olympic stars, Tandara Caixeta, for total points scored in a single game: 39.

Translated from Portuguese by Cátia Freitas

Dear Sirs,
First of all I’d like to thank the BOC and the BCV for the opportunities bestowed upon me to represent my country in four Olympiads and numerous volleyball world championships. Those were years of enormous sacrifice and pleasure providing daily witness of the valorous ideals of the Baron of Coubertin, ideals that will always reside in my soul.

To be able to represent my country among the best of the world is the greatest honour an athlete can dream of in their career. Among the titles reached, certainly, the confidence, given to me, that I’d present the image of Brazilian sport, with respect and dignity, for 24 years of my life, is in my career, one of my most cherished achievements.

It is with respect but much concern that I write, to all entities responsible for sport, about the threat to the virtue of women’s competitions that now occurs with the acceptance of athletes that were born men, developed muscle mass, bone mass, lung and air capacity as men, in forms of sport created and formatted specifically for women. If someone has to go public and pay a price in the name of truth, common sense and fact, I’m willing to bear the consequences. The space, won with integrity by women in sport is at play.

I’m proud of having inherited the values that built the western civilisation, the most liberal, tolerant and diverse of human history. This unique social and cultural legacy has allowed us, women, to gain our space in society, in the market and sport. It’s in the celebration of our differences that we become more united, men and women, inside and outside the field and it is through that legacy that we can look upon each and every individual as a unique and special being.

At a time when political militancy condenses and reduces thinking to ideological soundbites that deny reality, it’s not difficult to identify the trap where sports entities have fallen and which can take away all women’s sport. We know of sports strength to elevate the human spirit above conflict and war, especially every four years, when, during three magical weeks, we witness that which is best and most noble in all of us. We need to defend that legacy.

The truth most obvious and most respected by all who are involved in sport is the biological difference between men and women. If this weren’t the case why the need to to establish categories separated by sex? Why is the men’s volley net set at 2.43m height and the women’s at 2.24m? A good sense superficial analysis of men and women’s physical traits in basketball is, enough to understand these categories are not interchangeable.

Swimmer Allison Schmitt set the 200m world record at 1:53.61, an admirable feat, but when compared to Michael Phelps’ 1:42-96 in the same modality, it only evidences the physical differences between men and women. Women’s under 17 football teams are used to training and losing against men’s teams. There is an infinity of examples about how it doesn’t make sense to mix men and women in sports where physical strength makes a difference to the end result.

Is it fair, to simply pretend away these undeniable biological differences in the name of a political ideology which will serve to restrict a space so hard won by women who struggled for it for so many centuries? How to accept “biological” men in fighting competitions, pitilessly hitting women, and then gaining acclaim, medals and money for it? Have we all gone so crazy as to permit such degradation? “It’s a great difference and we feel impotent”

Doctors are starting to pronounce themselves about the evident advantages of transexual athlets in female sports and contest the recommendation made by the IOC of allowing trans athletes in women’s competitions with only a year of low level testosterone. Several physiologists have already attested that this IOC parameter does not revert the effects of the male hormone in the, decades long, already finalised development of bone, tissue, organs and muscle. Volleyball coaches in Brazil and Italy are already relating how sporting agents are offering places in women’s volley teams to trans athletes, biological men who will occupy women’s places in their teams. How long are we going to keep quiet while we witness this? I refuse to.

The voices of sports people, in general, and women volleyball players, in particular, are being stifled. Many don’t express their indignation for the total lack of protection by sports entities aiding and abetting this nonsense. “It’s a great difference and we feel impotent”, said Juliana Fillipeli, player for Pinheiros volley team, as she saw Tiffany Abreu, ex-Rodrigo, win against her team and, once again, beat the points record in that final. Tiffany, who played in Brazil’s men’s Super League as Rodrigo, is, in a very few games, now the highest scoring player in the women’s Super League, leaving an Olympic champion and one of the best players in Brazil and the world, Tandara, behind.

During 24 years, dedicated to volleyball, I was submitted to the most rigorous anti-doping control by all sporting entities, including the Word Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). I was tested while I competed and outside of competitions to prove my body was not built on testosterone at any moment in my life. For women, of all the tests, the most important is the one which accurately measures the levels of the male hormone, which is strictly prohibited from use or its body production induced at every stage of a women’s sporting life.

To summarise, ever since my adolescence, I needed to prove, scientifically, that I am a woman to compete and, later, to maintain my achievements, titles and medals. How many women did not lose titles or were banned from sport specifically on account of this hormone which is offal in a normal male body? There used to be a mutual trust between athletes, entities and federations to keep sport clean, fair and honest, with no shortcuts nor trickery. This is now a relationship one step from being broken.

The sample material taken years ago for anti-doping tests of all athletes, is still kept today and can be, at any moment, accessed and tested again. A new measurement that proves testosterone levels incompatible with a female body can take away titles, achievements of years or decades ago, retroactively. This level of rigour has been completely abandoned to accommodate transexuals who, not long ago, were men, some of whom having competed professionally as men. What would a female transexual sample show? This is completely unacceptable.

Transexuals inclusion in society needs to be accepted, but this rushed and heedless decision to include biological men, born and built with testosterone, with their height, their strength and aerobic capacity of men, is beyond the sphere of tolerance. It represses, embarrasses, humiliates and excludes women.

We currently look on as sporting entities blind themselves to human biology, in an attempt to hoodwink science in the name of politico-ideological agendas. We currently look on a moral perversion against women and the complicity of sport authorities around the world in a supreme form of misogyny. A declaration of good intentions, on the part of entities responsible for protecting scrupulous and correct sport, is not sufficient to justify such sizeable absurdity.

Sport has always been a great and respected vehicle for women’s gains, a weapon that has always evidenced women’s worth to those who have tried to impose limits on the dreams of all women who have struggled and fought to show our value, talent, capacity to overcome and merit.

On the week that we celebrate Martin Luther King, I leave, to world sports leaderships, one of his celebrated quotes: “Our lives start to end the day we silence ourselves about things which are really important.”
fairplayforwomen.com/ana_paula_henkel/

Procrastinator1 · 18/12/2018 12:18

Treaclesoda was Mckinnon on around 7.50 on Five Live?

andyoldlabour · 18/12/2018 12:32

R0wantrees, what a great letter!
Princess Anne is still one of our reps on the IOC, I wonder if she would be interested in fighting for this cause?

R0wantrees · 18/12/2018 12:36

andyoldlabour

I think its really worth anyone with connections to sporting bodies, clubs etc sending and sharing the letter with a short note asking them to consider.

Ana Paula Henkel makes very important points which must be considered and discussed.

The majority of the population are still not aware.
Its a good starting point.

R0wantrees · 18/12/2018 12:37

Princess Anne is still one of our reps on the IOC, I wonder if she would be interested in fighting for this cause?

The stages are usually awareness, curiosity, understanding & then possibly fighting.
Smile

SunsetBeetch · 18/12/2018 12:40

Woke beardy BBC bloke says counter arguments are transphobic.

"I think the transphobic point was made to your claim that there was a "threat" to female sport. You also said that women "would leave sport in their droves". Context is key here. 0.3%-0.75% of UK population is trans, numbers playing sports are fewer."

twitter.com/alistairmagowan/status/1074999658009780224?s=19

SunsetBeetch · 18/12/2018 12:42

twitter.com/alistairmagowan/status/1075005043537924096?s=19

FPFW: "Have you read this letter by @AnaPaulaVolei to the IOC? She sees the 'threat' just like so many other sports people. Or is this just more transphobia? This isn't a student mag you are writing for, its the BBC. We expect higher standards that this."

AM: "I'd imagine that this might be described as transphobic too. We report both sides, as we have done in this case."