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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stella O'Malley, Trans Kids: It's Time To Talk

609 replies

drum123 · 21/11/2018 20:06

Apologies if there is already a thread about this. Channel 4, 10.00 tonight. 'Stella O'Malley considers the huge rise in numbers of young people embarking on gender transition, through the prism of the gender identity issues she experienced when she was a child.' According to The Times no TRA groups were prepared to contribute to this . Stella feels this may be because she was a tomboy as a young girl, (even insisting she was a boy until she hit puberty), and is now a confident, mature woman who believes that nowadays she would be pressured to go down the transition route. Sounds like it will be worth watching.

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MrsSnippyPants · 27/02/2019 16:42

I watched this again last night (still on my digi box thingy from when it was first broadcast). I found the footage of the TRAs protesting the meeting even more horrifying the second time around. I am glad it is now available for everyone to see.
I wonder if Stella will do a follow up at some point?

R0wantrees · 27/02/2019 12:52

Olly Lambert's twitter response to Graham Linehan's request 'I'd like to collect some anecdotes about when and why you first became involved in the debate about gender ideology/activism'

(OL was the Director of 'Trans Kids, Its Time to Talk' documentary)

"It was probably the moment I realised that not a single charity, journalist, support group or doctor who supported the affirmation of trans kids would take part in a documentary that wanted to ask valid questions about the treatment of …trans kids. THREAD 1/13

At the start of this, I’d undoubtedly have called myself an ally, and still do in a different way. Live and let live, give people the lives and freedoms they want, let kids live their true lives. /2

The film “Trans Kids: It’s Time to Talk” sought to ask if if the medication and affirmation of trans kids was always the right path. I’d expected passionate and articulate charities & campaign groups would want to take part and speak about how this process helps. /3

And yet in almost 20 years of making films, I’d never encountered such a systematic refusal to debate something so patently important. Every single "pro trans kids" group refused to speak, and I had to ask why. /4

Stonewall refused, saying that as the film included “gender critical” voices it would be ‘denying the existence of trans people’. This was laughable. Interviews with trans people make up nearly half the film. /5

Britain’s only private “gender GP” Helen Webberley said she’d take part on condition that Stephanie Davies-Arai and @David @DavidTCDavies were not included. Amazed, we asked if there were others she didn’t want us to talk to. She said she’d need to check the “little list” /6

Maria Miller MP didn’t have even ten minutes free in the following 3 months (!) to be interviewed about the Women’s & Equalities Select Committee (which she chairs), adding that she was no longer involved in the trans debate. (But… /7

...On the day Maria Miller wrote this to me, Stonewall sent an invitation to MPs inviting them to a “panel event on trans equality, held in partnership with Maria Miller MP…”) /8

Paris Lees pulled out of two meetings, both times on the day they were supposed to happen, before saying she didn’t have time to take part. /9

Mermaids had various reasons, falsely stating that the author & psychotherapist presenter @stellaomalley3 was “unqualified” and “confused”. They also wouldn’t take part because “the film will be one sided” (their refusal to take part only serving to make that more likely). /10

Lily Madigan refused because there was “nothing to debate”. /11

Jake Graf wouldn’t even speak on the phone. Owen Jones ignored all emails and requests via an intermediary. Jane Fae said no. Gendered Intelligence never replied to emails. And on and on. /12

The only organisation who I felt gave a valid reason was the Tavistock. After a long meeting with Polly Carmichael (who was thoughtful, nuanced and recognised the complexity) they ultimately declined saying they feared their words would be “weaponised” by all sides. /13

So my question remains: if a treatment is so right, if your position is so unarguably good, why not talk about it? Feeling that you’re so correct you can’t be disagreed with is a really, really bad look. /14

Anyway. We made the film. You can see it here:
vimeo.com/304866757 "

threader.app/thread/1100693458048770048

current thread collating responses to the same question from Mumsnet members:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3518546-help-a-brother-out

NeurotrashWarrior · 27/02/2019 12:41

The biggest irony is that women / feminists who want to discuss this have no 'vitriol,' they just wish to point out sex based rights and protections are being ignored and erased.

R0wantrees · 27/02/2019 12:10

The number of trans advocates who refused to take part in this documentary is staggering

But not surprising.

cf May 2018 Channel 4 GenderQuake Debate:

My OP:
"Channel 4's Genderquake Debate is heavily criticised/ boycotted(?) by prominent transgender activists & allies .
Transgender campaigners and organisations have released an open letter to Channel 4 criticising Genderquake, a season of programmes touted as an exploration of the gender debate, as "counterproductive".
Signees are particularly concerned about Genderquake: The Debate, a studio discussion hosted by Cathy Newman that promises to look at what gender means in 2018. It will discuss topics including: 'what defines our gender identity', 'how that affects our rights', 'should it be easier to change gender' and 'does gender matter'.

The letter, published by indy100 in full below, argues that the debate will give legitimacy to transphobia, prejudice and the notion that trans identities are up for discussion. This concern is presumably stoked by the presence of Australian-born academic and writer Germaine Greer on the panel, who has previously said transgender women "can't be women". continues...

"The letter is published in full below and has been signed by dozens of prominent transgender and non-binary activists and campaigners - and allies - alike, including Fox Fisher, Owl, Stephanie Hirst, Juno Roche, Travis Alabanza, Kate Llewellyn, Jack Monroe and India Willoughby."

www.indy100.com/article/genderquake-the-debate-transphobia-channel-4-open-letter-campaigners-germaine-greer-8341481

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3243464-Channel-4s-Genderquake-Debate-is-heavily-criticised-boycotted-by-prominent-transgender-activists-allies

see also:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3243516-Dr-Helen-Webberley-GenderGP-Interview-in-The-Independent-re-GenderQuake-Debate

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3249035-Stephen-Whittle-s-blog-on-Genderquake-with-a-detailed-briefing-for-panelists

NeurotrashWarrior · 27/02/2019 11:26

The number of trans advocates who refused to take part in this documentary is staggering:

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1100693458048770048.html

JustAnotherWoman · 26/02/2019 14:06

Autocorrect fail

'Was seeing' not 'wasn't seeing'

JustAnotherWoman · 26/02/2019 14:04

Thanks for posting the link Rowantrees, I missed it when it came out (needed a break from thinking about some of this).

Great documentary Stella

The most shocking part for me wasn't seeing Debbie Hayton wife. She looked like she did not want to be there. Debbie's had tweeted about being in the documentary in a way that made me feel Debbie's was pleased with how it had gone. That suggest Debbie still can't see the impact it has all had on Stephanie. Stephanie is clearly used to speaking in public she was articulate, the rush she had trying to get the words out at one point made me think she was quite agitated and trying to stay in control. The whole thing made me feel very sad for Stephanie and brought home Debbie is putting Debbie first and taking for granted that their needs are the most important

Im afraid that whole interview and lack of awareness has made me think much worse of Debbie and really brought home the shock a transformation like that is for the family.

R0wantrees · 24/02/2019 22:55

Hellbentwellwent

Stella O'Malley published a link on her twitter feed, twitter.com/stellaomalley3/status/1088097800129265665

Hellbentwellwent · 24/02/2019 22:16

Is this available to watch anywhere? I missed it first time round and can’t find it on channel 4 or YouTube. Any links?

R0wantrees · 24/02/2019 15:33

But of course, if research such as that attempted by James Caspian gets shut down, what hope is there?

February 17th 2019 Telegraph interview:
'Why are we so scared to admit many people regret changing their gender?'
(extract)
"This week – as has been the case on some 50 previous occasions since he first made headlines for attempting to conduct research into people who had regretted changing their gender – James Caspian received a poignant email.
Confidentiality is paramount to Caspian, a trained psychotherapist, and so he is careful on which details he discloses. The note was written by a British woman who transitioned to a man after being sexually abused as a child. It was only much later, the correspondent informed him, that they realised it was a terrible mistake. The decision to transition was an attempt to escape the trauma of the abuse. But at the time, no professional who assisted in the process had attempted to delve into the reasons why.

His correspondent stressed there were others, too, in a similar situation whose voices needed to be heard. ‘This is a massive wheel that needs to start rolling,’ the letter said.

Next week marks 59-year-old Caspian’s latest attempt to do just that. On Tuesday, his barrister will conduct an oral hearing at the Royal Courts of Justice in his latest bid to secure a judicial review into a decision by Bath Spa University to ban a proposed piece of research on people reversing their gender reassignment surgery and transition." (continues)
www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/scared-admit-many-people-regret-changing-gender/
thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3510664-James-Caspian-interview-in-Sunday-Telegraph

Telegraph
February 19th 2019
'Proposal to research 'trans regret' rejected by university for fear of backlash, claims psychotherapist'
(extract)
On Tuesday, Mr Diamond told the court: "That is not academic judgment, that is terror on the streets of our universities."

Mr Caspian’s barrister, Paul Diamond, argued that the Bath Spa had rejected the proposal on the grounds that "engaging in a potentially politically incorrect piece of research carries a risk to the university" and was seeking a judicial review of the process.

However, the judge, Michael Kent QC, quashed their case, saying: “I entirely accept that there are important issues of freedom of expression. I just do not accept that, on the facts of this particular case, there is an arguable case made out.

He added that the application was brought too late after the university's decision, and said: "I accept that it could be said that this is pedantic and it is far removed from the underlying decision, but I can’t see any way round that."

Speaking afterwards, Mr Caspian told The Telegraph: “I think this sets a dangerous precedent in that research into sensitive areas will not be carried out because universities don’t want to take ownership.” (continues)
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/02/19/proposal-research-trans-regret-rejected-university-fear-backlash/

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3512940-Caspian-loses-case-against-university

NeurotrashWarrior · 24/02/2019 15:21

But of course, if research such as that attempted by James Caspian gets shut down, what hope is there?

NeurotrashWarrior · 24/02/2019 15:16

Also this shared by Stella.

twitter.com/EvaPoen/status/1099585941172355073

Stella O'Malley, Trans Kids: It's Time To Talk
Stella O'Malley, Trans Kids: It's Time To Talk
Stella O'Malley, Trans Kids: It's Time To Talk
NeurotrashWarrior · 24/02/2019 15:13

Ah R0, you're so good!

R0wantrees · 29/11/2018 09:26

The inexhaustible need for validation draws TRAs to anything labelled ‘women's’. It’s not a Keep Out, it’s an invitation.

There was an interesting recent short thread about a specific example of this.
The reasons why a women-only dancing group had been organised, the TRA response (Facebook) and the outcome:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3428829-Intersectionality-appropriation-explained-by-Lisa-re-Sally-Hines

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/11/2018 09:05

I used to be a dinner lady angry

Remind me to tell you the space ship story sometime Grin

John and peter did not want billy to go on their spaceship...it was epic

Ooh and the 'there is already too many people playing' one

Not now obviously Grin

AngryAttackKittens · 29/11/2018 08:48

If you won't play with me I'm telling teacher! Or the human rights commission, possibly. Or West/North Yorkshire Police.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/11/2018 08:45

Nobody has to engage with anybody ...

At all

Its weird to think that people should be forced to engage

There are one or two posters on mumsnet that I avoid and don't engage with...im sure they wouldnt care if they knew Grin

And i would resent have to 'play' with them....its smacks of the playground

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 29/11/2018 06:59

This is a social media website.

No, it's not, it's a forum; not all mediums that facilitate discussion are social media. The function and etiquette are very different, and behaviour that might be de rigueur on a social media network, eg: Twitter, will be seen as the height of bad manners on a forum, eg: here. A small example would be the practice of @ing.

Sorry for the derail, I just see this argument crop up a lot in defence of certain types of behaviours on threads, and it makes my teeth itch.

R0wantrees · 29/11/2018 05:50

Nobody is attempting to exclude on the basis of sex. But there are a number of us who think, given the venue of this thread on the programme, that it's entirely right to prioritise women's voices, particularly transwidows, who are rarely referenced in any of the various media on this topic.

This ^^

& before believing claims/suggestions otherwise, its really worth reading what has actually being written.

Yeahnahyeah · 29/11/2018 01:00

Thank you thank you thank you to the woman who gave the link to this video, just watched it and will be sharing it with others in NZ as its seems we have the exact same concerns - and very nearly following the same timeline. (Not sure if other kiwis agree)

WrathofbubonicKlop · 29/11/2018 00:47

Social media is never going to be a safe space to discuss really personal issues, is it? Even choosing opaque " user names" will never solve that

Why do you think social media is never a safe to discuss personal issues?

It is as anonymous as the platform allows.
It allows people to start a conversation,
to vent their feelings.

It is an opportunity to talk about all those subjects that might be awkward/distressing/taboo even to those closest to you.

Obviously, not all SM platforms are the same, a bit of discernment is needed.

If I was about to undergo a distressing gyne procedure, I would like to be able to seek out others in similar circumstances.

Without that connection we remain isolated and very much alone with our troubles.

Social media can be a safe space if you read the rules of the game before you join.

AspieAndProud · 28/11/2018 23:46

I think giving a thread off and calling it ‘women only’ will be about as successful as labelling something ‘women’s shelter’, ‘women’s sport’, ‘women’s health’ or ‘women’s shortlist’.

The inexhaustible need for validation draws TRAs to anything labelled ‘women's’. It’s not a Keep Out, it’s an invitation.

FloralBunting · 28/11/2018 23:38

Nobody is attempting to exclude on the basis of sex. But there are a number of us who think, given the venue of this thread on the programme, that it's entirely right to prioritise women's voices, particularly transwidows, who are rarely referenced in any of the various media on this topic.

The notion of keeping their testimonies and views hived off in a particular thread and not given a platform elsewhere, that keeps being pressed as an idea in response to those of us who want to amplify their voices, is startlingly oppressive, tbh.

Everyone is, of course, welcome to post on a public forum. There is no obligation, however, on the women who also post, to give weight and credence to a perspective which already has considerable platforms elsewhere.

AngryAttackKittens · 28/11/2018 23:34

Nope, women on a site called "Mumsnet" should not have to hive off into private forums in order for a focus on women to be maintained. The transwidows thread should indeed be treated respectfully so that the focus on them is maintained, but I really doubt that a sticky saying "don't be an arsehole and respect other people's boundaries" would make much difference to the people who regard women's boundaries as an unfair inconvenience to them.

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