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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ruth Hunt & Stonewall, "do not and will not acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’

188 replies

R0wantrees · 04/10/2018 11:18

Response to petition,
www.ipetitions.com/petition/dear-stonewall-please-reconsider-your-approach

Since the planned reform of the Gender Recognition Act was announced a year ago, there have been daily articles and social media threads that question trans people’s right to exist, trying to undermine their ability to go about their daily lives free from fear and abuse. This week, a petition has been launched directly asking Stonewall to reconsider our work on trans equality.
The petition asks us to acknowledge that there are a range of viewpoints around sex and gender. Of course we know that these differing views exist, and have existed for many years. The petition also asks us to acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’. We do not and will not acknowledge this. Doing so would imply that we do not believe that trans people deserve the same rights as others. However, we are unequivocal in our support of trans people’s – and everyone’s – right to equality and will remain so. Our motto is ‘acceptance without exception’. (continues)

www.stonewall.org.uk/stonewall-stories-category/come-out-lgbt/our-work-trans-equality-heart-our-mission-acceptance

current threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard/3384045-Petition-to-Stonewall

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384407-Times-letter-petition-STONEWALL-CRITICISED-undermining-women-s-sex-based-rights-and-protections-Jonny-Best-et-al

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384307-James-Kirkup-Spectator-lead-article-Trans-rights-have-gone-wrong-The-new-gender-orthodoxy-allows-no-room-for-dissent

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
Noqont · 04/10/2018 13:02

Denying safeguarding for woman and children is not a good look Ruth. I suspect you have shot yourself, and stonewall in the foot there.

FekkoTheLawyer · 04/10/2018 13:01

Haven't we gone beyond that though? We have gay marriage, employment rights discrimination rights...

UpstartCrow · 04/10/2018 12:58

If Stonewall are discredited, who stands up for gay rights in the UK?

pinchpoint · 04/10/2018 12:57

Whether or not Ruth Hunt acknowledges the existence of the sex-based exemption in the Equality Act 2010, and our safeguarding legislation to protect children from abuse, is beside the point.

Those laws don't stop being real because her organisation promotes their infringement. Stonewall is bound by the rule of law as much as any other charity or public body.

It's troubling that Hunt should take that line late in the day, i.e. women and children don't matter, all that matters is that the whole society validates some men's disordered sexual identities.

Will the EHRC and the Charity Commission be stepping in any time soon? Or are women volunteers going to have to prosecute what they ought - by now, when everyone can see what's afoot - to be doing on our behalf?

Angry

She must go. It's outrageous that she's still in leadership now that the wheels are so visibly coming off the trans wagon.

Estellesylvia · 04/10/2018 12:56

Not surprised by this. She is never going to budge a millimetre on this issue, she knows what pays the bills.

MoltenLasagne · 04/10/2018 12:55

Acceptance without exception - this is what Ruth Hunt is promoting. Fuck safeguarding eh?

Ruth Hunt & Stonewall, "do not and will not acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’
deepwatersolo · 04/10/2018 12:54

I don't think she is very bright. Or they are holding her cat to ransom.

On you tube the other night, I was searching for transpeople condemning underage transition, I came across Blaire White ranting that many (I presume right wing) show hosts she's been invited to, don't actually believe what they say, but try to design/follow a script that they think will increase their popularity among viewers, or revenue or so.

Maybe it is the same for Ruth Hunt, and that is all there is to it.

IfNotNowThenWhen1 · 04/10/2018 12:54

there have been daily articles and social media threads that question trans people’s right to exist, trying to undermine their ability to go about their daily lives free from fear and abuse.
Is she saying concerned feminists and their supporters are actively denying the existence of trans people, threatening them physically and and abusing them? Perhaps one of her allies who regularly post on here could link to some evidence of this.
Otherwise you could say that Ruth Hunt is a cold blooded liar.

Bowlofbabelfish · 04/10/2018 12:53

I would dearly love to talk face to face with her because this is not a position that can be maintained logically at all.

So no conflict? (No!)
Do you believe twaw? (Yes!)
Why do you believe that? Do you believe humans can change sex? (Ummmm... )

There is not a single person who wiklstand up and say they believe humans can change sex. Because they know it’s ridiculous. And yet the entire argument is predicated on this - that there is no biological difference between women and transwomen.

Any one of us could have such a conversation with her and by such simple, fundamental questions we could expose the utter lack of logical consistency

And we know that. And yet the position is stil twaw, shut up women, this is happening.

For that to be the case, I can only conclude that those in power pushing this are either;

Monumentally thick
Religious in their belief
Actively pushing this

I do not for a second believe any MP is option 1.

Cwenthryth · 04/10/2018 12:49

Agree - no one is arguing about anyone’s ‘right to exist’ FFS. Total lie. Stonewall have just basically outright said they don’t give a stuff about women and girls - lesbians and bisexual women are women and girls, idiots. Alright. Makes you pretty irrelevant as anything other than a mouthpiece of anti-woman trans activism though.

FekkoTheLawyer · 04/10/2018 12:49

What about women Penny? Who is hating the trans community (and define this anyway)? Men? Who is threatening GC folks, - er men. What do the vast majority of self-stated m2f transfolk have that only men have (go on guess).

I don't think she is very bright. Or they are holding her cat to ransom.

NoSquirrels · 04/10/2018 12:47

trans people deserve the same rights as others

And they have them.

The have the same rights as "others". They just don't have rights afforded to people of a different sex.

I don't have the right to park in a blue badge disabled bay. Are disabled people denying my "right to exist"?

IT'S ALL FUCKING NONSENSE.

R0wantrees · 04/10/2018 12:45

Penny Mordant MP Minister for Women & Equalities at Conservative Conference Stonewall reception this week.

Ruth Hunt & Stonewall, "do not and will not acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’
OP posts:
heresyandwitchcraft · 04/10/2018 12:42

This is pretty good actually - we now have proof that THEY are the ones refusing to talk, despite a reasonable approach from concerned individuals...
Bury your heads in the sand, Stonewall. But you cannot pretend these tensions are not reasonable or do not exist. No parent thinks it's acceptable to call Jacinta Brooks a woman and let them have unfettered access of the girls' changing room. Not one.

FekkoTheLawyer · 04/10/2018 12:39

Petition: 2,875 Signatures / Goal: 5,000

Fallingirl · 04/10/2018 12:38

I find this article, describing trans appropriations of womanhood as colonisation, really useful.

melaninandestrogen.wordpress.com/2016/11/21/the-colonization-of-womanhood/

It allows us to describe ourselves as indigenous women, and men imposing their idea of womanhood on to us, as colonisers. Using these terms are a really useful way of countering the claim that TWAW is the woke and progressive view.

Colonisation ahs never been woke and progressive, even though the language used by imperialist colonisers has always been that they are liberating the indigenous populations.

ErrolTheDragon · 04/10/2018 12:37

They could also stop calling us transphobic for wanting a debate,

They could amend their examples of 'transphobic attitudes', the first two of which (not the rest, which are I think entirely or arguably valid) designed to gag women from talking the subject. Neither socialisation nor biology admissible, because they say so.Hmm

From https://www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/transgenderbooklett_2004.pdf

  • I can't c&p, it's in the section 'what is transphobia' ... and I think we can assume that the second point is also supposed to cover asserting that TW are not real women because do have, or were born with, a penis but they knew it was better to avoid that.
DontCisgenderMe · 04/10/2018 12:36

Doing so would imply that we do not believe that trans people deserve the same rights as others.

By that argument, not doing so would imply that they do not believe that women deserve the same rights as others.

ShotsFired · 04/10/2018 12:34

The more and more people like her try to answer a different question than the one they have actually been asked, the more ridiculous and untenable their position becomes.

I mean, that shit goes down well on AIBU, but in the real world, being so dishonest is not considered a noble debating tool.

OrchidInTheSun · 04/10/2018 12:34

Without trans rights, Stonewall has no purpose. No purpose, no funding, no charity. Ruth and her mates would be out of a job.

So she has to stick to the TWAW line - anything else would be shooting herself in the foot.

How a lesbian who only fucks other women can say that with a straight face though, god only knows.

R0wantrees · 04/10/2018 12:31

Spectator article 'Don’t tell the parents: the official guidance to teachers of ‘trans children’
As in so many progressive ­schooling fads before it, children are the experts and ­teachers are just there to facilitate'
by Madeleine Kearns

concludes:
"What’s worrying is that anyone who challenges the new teaching on trans issues can find themselves in trouble. So when Victoria Atkins, the Minister for Women, admitted to being ‘a little cautious’ about teenage sex-changes, she was accused of bigotry. And Dr Kenneth Zucker, perhaps the leading authority on gender dysphoria in children, was recently ousted from his clinic in Toronto after being accused of ‘transphobia’ and supporting ‘conversion therapy’ because his 40 years’ experience and research had led him to the conclusion that affirming a child’s perceived gender can be counterproductive.

Many of these transgenderism training programmes are publicly funded. Last year, LGBT Youth Scotland received more than £1 million in grants, including £350,000 from the Scottish government, £160,000 from local authorities (all but one SNP-controlled), and £75,000 from Education Scotland. Mermaids UK, meanwhile, was granted £35,000 from the Department for Education and £128,000 from Children in Need.

Something is off here. Teachers are being asked to put ideology before evidence and to exclude parents from serious welfare decisions about their own children. Parents are often not allowed to take part in the discussion. Children are being asked to make important decisions about their gender, which is a surprisingly adult notion for many to grasp. What’s clear is that the issue of gender dysphoria in children is one of tremendous complexity, both medical and moral. To suggest otherwise — to children or teachers — is a dangerous mistake."

www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/dont-tell-the-parents-official-guidance-to-teachers-of-trans-children/

OP posts:
deepwatersolo · 04/10/2018 12:30

Doing so would imply that we do not believe that trans people deserve the same rights as others.

Well, but if trans people have their right to force their fact-free ideology onto me, they have more rights than I do.

silentcrow · 04/10/2018 12:26

I find it interesting that this entire movement rests on telling a few central lies, such as: "There have been daily articles and social media threads that question trans people’s right to exist." That isn't true, and Ruth Hunt knows it isn't true.

To quote the inimitable Jean Hatchet, prove it. Show me these articles that "question the right to exist". Because I haven't seen any. What I have seen is articles saying "this assertion about biology is provably untrue", "these statistics are incorrect", and most importantly " you may not overrule the rights of women".

In other words, you've been told no, and you just don't like it.

JoggerBottom · 04/10/2018 12:22

As previous posters have said: I don't understand what she means by 'right to exist'. Trans people exist, women exist, men exist, children exist etc, etc...
Does she mean 'do what they want'? Because I know of plenty of things that I can't just do whenever I want as a woman.

Discourse around this debate is ridiculous.

EmpressAdultHumanFemale · 04/10/2018 12:13

Ruth might also have seen what happens to women who put a toe out of line & be scared of losing her job. Which I don't view as an excuse, by the way.