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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ruth Hunt & Stonewall, "do not and will not acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’

188 replies

R0wantrees · 04/10/2018 11:18

Response to petition,
www.ipetitions.com/petition/dear-stonewall-please-reconsider-your-approach

Since the planned reform of the Gender Recognition Act was announced a year ago, there have been daily articles and social media threads that question trans people’s right to exist, trying to undermine their ability to go about their daily lives free from fear and abuse. This week, a petition has been launched directly asking Stonewall to reconsider our work on trans equality.
The petition asks us to acknowledge that there are a range of viewpoints around sex and gender. Of course we know that these differing views exist, and have existed for many years. The petition also asks us to acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’. We do not and will not acknowledge this. Doing so would imply that we do not believe that trans people deserve the same rights as others. However, we are unequivocal in our support of trans people’s – and everyone’s – right to equality and will remain so. Our motto is ‘acceptance without exception’. (continues)

www.stonewall.org.uk/stonewall-stories-category/come-out-lgbt/our-work-trans-equality-heart-our-mission-acceptance

current threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard/3384045-Petition-to-Stonewall

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384407-Times-letter-petition-STONEWALL-CRITICISED-undermining-women-s-sex-based-rights-and-protections-Jonny-Best-et-al

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384307-James-Kirkup-Spectator-lead-article-Trans-rights-have-gone-wrong-The-new-gender-orthodoxy-allows-no-room-for-dissent

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
DayMay · 04/10/2018 21:09

The Pope and Catholic Bishops of England and Wales teach that souls DON'T go into the wrong bodies.

DayMay · 04/10/2018 21:08

Ruth Hunt is a practising Roman Catholic. Hmm

The Pope and Catholic Bishops of England and Wales teach that souls go into the wrong bodies.Confused

R0wantrees · 04/10/2018 21:04

I have just cancelled my direct debit to Shelter; Ruth Hunt is their Vice Chair. I've written to tell them why:

"There are two reasons for this. The first is that I have been a support of Shelter for over ten years, and there are other causes I wish to support.

The second is that I am very unhappy with your choice of Vice Chair. Ruth Hunt has, in my opinion, managed to turn Stonewall into an organisation that actively seeks to harm women and particularly lesbians, and I cannot trust the organisational values of a charity that has her on its board."

@TheMostBeautifulDogInTheWorld

It is concerning to note that Shelter are misquoting key housing legislation, replacing sex with gender.

from thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3384418-Charities-using-sex-and-gender-interchangeably

"Someone on Twitter has made a very good point that there are rules (when it comes to social housing at least) regarding boys and girls sharing bedrooms at home"

It is also part of housing legislation. In assessing possible overcrowding:
Section 325 of the Housing Act 1985 provides that there is
overcrowding wherever there are so many people in a house that any
two or more of those persons, being ten or more years old, and of
opposite sexes, not being persons living together as husband and wife, must sleep in the same room.

For these purposes, children under ten may be disregarded and a room means any room normally used as either a bedroom or a living room. A kitchen can be a living room provided it is big enough to accommodate a bed.
When interpreting this definition, a local authority looks at how the
sleeping arrangements within the premises could be organised, rather than how they are organised.

Thus, a couple, with two children of opposite sexes and aged ten years or more, with two living rooms (e.g. bedrooms), may not be statutorily overcrowded because the couple could occupy separate rooms, with one each of the children (of the appropriate sex) .
There is no limit on the number of people of the same sex who can live in the same room under section 325 although there may be a
contravention of the space standard"
House of Commons BRIEFING PAPER
Number 1013, 21 September 2018
Overcrowded housing
(England)

It is noteworthy that Shelter's guidelines have substituted the word 'gender' for 'sex' contrary to the legislation which could have implications:

  1. Room standard
This method is called the room standard. It looks at the number and gender of people who sleep in the same room. Children under the age of 10 are not counted.

A room is considered anywhere you could sleep in, not just bedrooms. It could include a living room, study or dining room.

Your home is overcrowded by law if two people of different genders have no option but to sleep in the same room. This doesn't apply to couples."

england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/repairs/check_if_your_home_is_overcrowded_by_law

The reasons for the statuatory requirement of single sex space sleeping space for children over 10 years old should be obvious to all. This is Safeguarding and Child Protection.

OP posts:
ChiaraRimini · 04/10/2018 21:03

Ha! Well blow me down, Ruth Hunt is a practising Roman Catholic.
Shock
Shock
Shock
How on EARTH can she square the actions of her Church with supporting LGB+ rights in any way?
What breathtaking hypocrisy!
Words really fail me.

ScienceIsTruth · 04/10/2018 20:59

Don't think you'll ever get through to any of these people as it's like trying to get a religious zealot to admit God might not exist.

Chocalatecappuccino · 04/10/2018 20:55

I find it extremely annoying and downright disingenuous that organisations like Stonewall, Mermaids etc are constantly going on about how we are questioning trans people’s right to exist and implying that we do not believe that trans people deserve the same rights as others.

No-one is saying this. No-one has ever said this. Trans people have the rights to have the same human rights as anyone else. What they do not have the right to do is identify into a sex (female) to which they categorically DO NOT belong and force the original members of that sex to falsely identify themselves for the benefit of others, to have their rights and protections destroyed, to be erased and not be able to define themselves. That is NOT a human right.

It is women's right to exist that is being questioned here. It is women who are being erased and re-defined, against our will. And quite frankly, I have had enough. I am tired of being nice. Women exist. We are adult human females. And Ruth Hunt can just fuck off.

Sarahconnor1 · 04/10/2018 20:50

Julie is planning on telling the story, before the consultation closes.

Ruth Hunt & Stonewall, "do not and will not acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’
SPOFS · 04/10/2018 20:48

Go Julie! I'm interested to see where this goes...

ShotsFired · 04/10/2018 20:47

That's a shot across the bows if ever i saw one. I wonder how many times she's thought about posting that....

pennydrew · 04/10/2018 20:45

Oh interesting... re Julie Bindel tweet

ChrysanthemumsAreMums · 04/10/2018 20:39

The OOh was about Julie Bindel's tweet

ChrysanthemumsAreMums · 04/10/2018 20:38

Pam

It is quite a good read

ChrysanthemumsAreMums · 04/10/2018 20:38

Oooh.

theOtherPamAyres · 04/10/2018 20:38

If the quick reponse was designed to stop people from signing the petition, it failed.

The comments from high profile, eminent past supporters are mind blowing.

Sarahconnor1 · 04/10/2018 20:36

This from Julie Bindel is very interesting.

mobile.twitter.com/bindelj/status/1047899829773504513

Ruth Hunt & Stonewall, "do not and will not acknowledge that there is a conflict between trans rights and ‘sex based women’s rights’
ChattyLion · 04/10/2018 20:33

..And full of ridiculous hyperbole.

Chrysanths I agree totally. It’s really not even an argument is it- just ‘I believe in X so everyone else has to as well’. I just can’t believe that a CEO of a charity would seriously use weird emotive ploys like that as part of their apparently robust rebuttal against a petition that is only asking them to consider and acknowledge other people’s views. It’s bizarre.

HawkeyeInConfusion · 04/10/2018 20:14

Can I identify as a FtMtF trans woman?

Stonewall has shown us who they are. Anti-women and lesbophobic.

FekkoTheLawyer · 04/10/2018 20:07

So folks on Twitter are saying that stonewall has one employee listed as being paid in the £90-100k. Guessing here - she should hang her head receiving a whopper like that in the 3rd sector. Or are they still classed as 3rd sector thee days?

ChattyLion · 04/10/2018 20:07

Floral i totally agree, it is an argument over a belief system, isn’t it? Why can’t we treat it like that though?

How is it not acceptable to say ‘OK, but you can’t really turn water into wine can you?’

Somehow everyone has to agree vociferously that the water is now wine, and what’s more we must criminalise grape growing and barrel making as hateful bigotry?

ChrysanthemumsAreMums · 04/10/2018 20:05

Chatty

The 'you deny our existence/don't want us to exist' is ridiculous but is deliberate (I think). It suggests "You want to hurt us. You want us the cease to be. You want to (even) kill us". It's very manipulative

FekkoTheLawyer · 04/10/2018 19:59

I like Storme (how did toy flsoo the derry over the e?) but these days I just think of the porn actress, so maybe not.

FloralBunting · 04/10/2018 19:50

ChattyLion, I see where you've gone wrong there. You've assumed that everyone is engaging in rational argument. Some are religious nutbars, and rational argument will not compute.

ChattyLion · 04/10/2018 19:47

I am struggling to understand the denying trans people’s ‘right to exist’ argument at all that Ruth Hunt makes in the OP.

Someone disagreeing about something with another person doesn’t have the power to make either person cease to exist? Confused

And certainly no one is even arguing that anyone else should ‘not exist’ in this debate? It doesn’t make sense.

It’s just not relevant as an argument is it?

Is it the same moral blackmail motif as used in Peter Pan? Clap if you believe in fairies? If you don’t clap, Tinkerbell will die?
(She ceases to Exist, if you don’t show to others that you believe in her, because she is an entity of the imagination..? )

I just can’t figure out this concept as a rational argument.

Turph · 04/10/2018 19:43

We're setting up an LGB alternative to Stonewall called Stormé. Anyone know where to start? Can't be that hard, JB has set enough up one-handed.

StarsAndWater · 04/10/2018 19:09

I would like Ruth Hunt to let us know what the collective noun for adults with vaginas is. We can't use women anymore. We've been told that saying natal women or biological women is exclusionary.
So what are this mysterious group of vagina people called?
Considering it's the 100th anniversary of suffrage for that group of people, I think it's horrifying that they can no longer have a name for themselves without being called transphobic.