Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues II

Why are we even talking on a thread titled "trans rights and gender critical issues"?

The issue for women is protecting same sex spaces for women and girls.

No one seems more supportive of expressing oneself any way you choose, just, if you're male, don't do it in our protected spaces or sports.

If trans people want to discuss trans rights why not set up a new topic for trans rights issues and delete any comments on fwr not centred on the rights of women and girls?

Are we allowed to say that 'top surgery' is breast amputation and bottom surgery is castration?

Oh my giddy aunt.

Go on then, Kate - give me such a term that does not involve coercing me to use terminology for the female sex.

There is no such term and gaslighting us into pretending that there is abusive of your gender critical users.

This is outrageous.

I am not using any terminology belonging to the female sex to refer to people who are not of the female sex. End of.

This is the gender critical position. You just banned it.

Agreed. Orwell would be chuckling bitterly if he was alive to read this. "We'll allow you to express this position as long as you don't actually express the position"? Really?

Why do you think that forcing women into linguistic contortions if they're to speak at all and then expecting them to be grateful for the privilege of doing so is an acceptable thing for a website aimed at women to be doing?

Forgot the fucking message. Sorry

One of the many odd things about the underpants gnome theory of pronouns proposed in the other thread (step one, muddy the fuck out of pronouns, step 2, ?, step 3, women are now equal!) is that most names are also gendered, so if someone sees that both a Sally and a Dave are auditioning for an orchestra or applying for an office job they know which one has the vagina and which one has the penis without having to ask for their pronouns. Are we going to rename everyone Sam or Pat? Because if not, dropping the pronouns won't make any difference.

There's also the fact that nobody other than Rat seems to want this, so, you know, shine on you crazy diamond and all, but other women don't have to join your quest if they don't want to.

On reporting, I'm not going to report cis or TERF because I think it's petty and stupid. If anything we should be pressing HQ to walk back the whole concept of banned words, because censorship is not a good thing.

I'll be amazed if any journalists can find this thread.

Tweet, email, direct message, phone, write to them and make them aware. This is actually a pretty big story with implications far beyond gender critical women on Mumsnet.

I think the deletions issue is part of the reason MNHQ have STILL not put this thread as "Trending", though I'm betting it's the most active thread on the site. If more MNers noticed it, there'd be a torrent of, ahem, robust views, lots of deletions, which would be embarrassing for MN

Maybe make a helpful thread in politics/aibu/etc informing people that MN are enforcing a new "3 strikes" system aimed at anyone who writes a post that could potentially upset trans males who have been using twitter to complain about women here talking openly about the impact of new legislation they are pushing for.

You'll probably get the usual "oh none of this interests me/about time the transphobes got shut down" posts, ignore those and focus instead on the a) women who are also concerned about this or don't know about it yet and b) women who don't necessarily align with our views on this or care about this issue but will easily see that today it is men on twitter campaigning against mumsnet women talking about gender but this sets a precedent for silencing women here from talking clearly about any topic that upsets people somewhere else on the internet. This is a bad precedent. FWR is brutally analytical and intelligent BUT it is also incredibly polite and the language here is far cleaner than some of the other boards on MN. This crackdown on women speaking is only the beginning - the door is being opened to all sorts of MRAs, FRAs, general misogynists, and other Internet crazies. Big mistake MN.

Oh, have found it.

I’ve been away. What new guidelines? Is there a list?

"Trans people find their bio sex distressing on some level"

I find my bank account distressing. Still doesn't make me write posts will "punch a banker" or worse.

Nor does it make me sign up to a completely random forum in which I have no interest nor business being on to complain about banking discussing financial markets and the stock markets.

If everyone complained to site owners about what "distresses" them, internet would be shut down within 15 minutes,

Surely deletion messages could be shared (if we're so inclined)? They're official company policy, not secret private messages. It would also help us understand why deletions are happening - "talk guidelines" could mean anything at all.

(Or is that against rules too?)

I think the deletions issue is part of the reason MNHQ have STILL not put this thread as "Trending", though I'm betting it's the most active thread on the site. If more MNers noticed it, there'd be a torrent of, ahem, robust views, lots of deletions, which would be embarrassing for MN.

Far better to keep it under the radar, so very safe for MNHQ, but rather disingenuous when you consider whatever happens to be the "policy" on Trending is, which I imagine is triggered by the number of posts.

Oh god

Now i want to know what it was echt

DONT TELL ME!!!! DONT TELL ME!!!!

LastTrainEast this is what worries me.

Okay thanks echt. I was just wondering about people who post a lot, who might get posts taken down without noticing, and don't realise they're on dodgy ground.

NotTerfNorCis they have said you will get an email for each deletion, but since they will likely be working through a thread you could probably get all three at once and a fourth email banning you.

“Trans people find their bio sex distressing on some level, so let’s not have a collective expression for them which insistently defines them by their bio sex “
So why do we have to have a collective term for them which insistently defines them by our bio sex instead ? Because I certainly find that distressing. As a victim of male violence I find the deception sinister, and the appropriation of MY bio sex both frightening and disturbing. Does my distress not count because I am female ? Does it not count because I’m not threatening suicide or telling my MP that Mumsnet has damaged my mental health ?

You get an email, with an explanation. The explanation given to me for my deletion, was so frankly bizarre, that I don't feel I can go into details without getting deleted again. I may even get deleted for writing this.

I'm surprised that the use of a given name, a legal name BTW, is now deemed offensive. Poor show mnhq poor show

I don't think that is their legal name now. IIRC LM had some issues because they had a passport with a feminine name that was not Lily on it, from before they settled on Lily.

I think MN have been deleting 'deadname' posts for a while now haven't they? Or is this a new development?

Don't have time to read through everything... do we get an email if we have a post deleted? Otherwise I can imagine a lot of people suddenly finding they've been banned when they never realised anything was up!

I know right. They can't find it that upsetting or they'd all bugger off. QED.

Not only can we not use natal sex but we cannot use a person's legal name either, because facts are transphobic and offensive to males?
Criminy?
If MNHQ is trying to flush out Emma's partners in crime this is certainly a destructive way to do it.