Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues II

Any news on an acceptable collective term that does not a) reference birth sex or b) appropriate my sex?

No offense is meant with this next comment so please don't feel offended but.....

None taken whatsoever!

I think I am kind of resigned to this being the new NM policy. I think if I breach it, all that will happen is that I will be banned. I would prefer to stick around and toe the line. It does also occur to me that I have only peaktransed in the last year and if I had come across the FWR board before that I would have been very put off tbh and would have thought everyone was just being unnecessarily mean, so there might be some positives in using slightly more neutral language.

On the basis of the way that the policy has been applied so far, I feel that it won't hinder my ability to get my points across. But I can absolutely understand if you disagree.

Viva
💪🏻

@AllyMcBeagle

No offense is meant with this next comment so please don't feel offended but.....

You message has a very resigned tone to it. As if you've given up.

I haven't. I won't give into the tantrums of a child. It'd be like me rushing out to buy a kennel, collar and leash for my 3 year old because she's started biting and barking.

If my view is not in line with the TAs expectation of a internet board on a forum where they are not active, have no interest in and who come only to report women for being vocal in their opposition to our erasure then I'll go down fighting with roars of "freedom" to be heard for centuries to come. It's the Irish in me. Fighting for what I believe in and melting snowflakes along the way.

But those are the pronouns on all legal documents relating to this person. They have no grc , self id and rejecting pronouns count for nothing in the real world.

Well I am positive that Madigan has said on Twitter that they have both a GRC and a passport which says that they are female. Despite my views above on their credibility, I wouldn't be actually surprised if they do have a passport with female on it - they are actually fairly easy to get nowadays (you basically just need a note from your GP IIRC).

Anyway, legally, it doesn't really matter. If I turn up at work on Monday and say that I am going to reassign my gender and am eventually going to change my documents but I want everyone to start calling me Bob and addressing me using the pronouns 'he/him/his' now rather than 'she/her', they have to start doing that. As the law stands currently, they wouldn't be able to say 'We're not doing that until you get a GRC.' They might be able to take a short period of time to sort out the paperwork (eg get IT to give me a new email address in the name of Bob) but not long. I know I am discussing a work context here, but it's possible that the Equality Act has some application to MN too if it counts as a 'service' (which I think it arguably could, but the law relating to the internet is not a specialist subject of mine so am not 100% positive on that point).

You can also use 'they/them/their' etc. if you want.

I agree with Pratchet above that it feels like the transperson can dictate use of language in an entirely unnatural way. But it is what it is.

Perhaps we should just use their surname, if need be, as in some posts above? That seems to be an acceptable format in most newspapers and there's no acknowledgement of gender that way. Just matter-of-fact comment.

@AllyMcBeagle

But those are the pronouns on all legal documents relating to this person. They have no grc , self id and rejecting pronouns count for nothing in the real world. Now if I were to use those pronouns with I don't know fionne or Miranda I could understand the fuss but just because someone "rejects" pronouns (but all legal documents,station relating to this person has a big fat m on it) didn't make it true or law.

And seeing as they have nothing to do with mumsnet seeing as they are not a parent but a petulant child, I am disgusted that MNHQ are bowing down to their demands. It's like rewarding a toddler for having a tantrum.

Omg ally I had to apologise to you as well three weeks ago
Honestly I shouldn't be allowed out

Ally I understand you and thank you for your legal brain!

Oops. I didn't mean to put shrugs in bold. I put astererix around it to denote that I was shrugging and forgot it would set it to bold.

Let me try this instead 🤷‍♀️

Sorry if I come across sharp.

Oh no, don't worry. I was only posting because Amalfimamma said she hadn't 'misgendered' (amongst other things) Madigan and so wanted clarification about why her post had been deleted.

Unless Amalfimamma meant of course that she hadn't 'misgendered' LM because gender doesn't exist, and so it is impossible to misgender anyone. I agree with that stance but it seems MN do not shrugs

Sorry if I come across sharp. I already upset another ally here and I don't want to squabble with any others. We all do things the way we do them and I shouldnt be sharp about it.

So what if they have?

LM isn't the boss of the world. The world (and MN) really shouldn't be behaving as though they have new rulers. And shouldn't force us to behave that way too.

I'm just saying I think those are how the new rules work. I can live with it as long as I can continue to find ways to express how appalled I am at both Madigan and the Labour Party for supporting them. I will understand if others don't agree.

when they have said that they reject those pronouns?

So what if they have?

LM isn't the boss of the world. The world (and MN) really shouldn't be behaving as though they have new rulers. And shouldn't force us to behave that way too.

Amalfimamma isn't it just because you keep referring to LM as he/him etc. when they have said that they reject those pronouns?

I think I am still safe to say that I don't like LM, I don't think they are qualified in any way for the women's officer role, I have been worried about what I have read about their attempts to remove GC women from the Labour Party, I don't believe what they have said about the old LM twitter account which refers to Jimmy Saville and in fact I don't trust a single word that they say about anything.

And as long as I just use the word 'they' then I believe I am following the rules...

mirandayardley
I got my first strike for saying what you said in that comment upthread.
You may want to have the mods take it down before one of the patrollers catch sight of it.

@AngryAttackKittens

That'll never happen. It'll be twisted to

Banned from mumsnet for being transphobic terfs who dared speak about our lills without first donating 500£ to the "oops ive overspent "pot

We'll end up with a whole "banned from Mumsnet for being too honest" club at this rate!

@AngryAttackKittens

Transparency, or a list of names of whom we can reference or not, would be more than useful.

Anyhoo, let's hope I survive the night here seeing as I'm on my last life. Ffs even candy crush give us five of them here it's 3. 🤣

Perhaps there's a lawsuit in progress from the individual references above, in which case, again, being transparent about that would be helpful.

I only want clarification because all the posts I've had deleted since these new rules have come into effect, have been about the one person.

I didn't misgender, nor did I slander, nor did I deadname (except in one post).

Apparently vokdemort is the chosen person and must not be named, in any way shape or form.

If it is in fact that case that we are not to be allowed to use any words for trans people that don't include the gender they identify as (so transwoman or transman) then they really ought to clarify that, since LangCleg and a few others have asked multiple times now. Commenters can then decide if they want to continue commenting on a site that's forcing them to tell what they firmly believe to be lies.

Ooooh dobby

Actually Voldermort was a name a man made up when he tried to stop being a human male and instead something greater. It's all about reinvention so from that aspect quite appropriate.

Leave Dobby alone. He really was oppressed.

@Ucantarguewistupid

Lol actually lobby would be more fitting. But seeing as all of my posts bout this person have been deleted because they didn't respect guidelines (factually true, using actual legal name, no misgendering and no slander in posts) I assume that the new guidelines were implmented and are policed by vokdemort thwmselves and dknt take kind at being discussed/outted/reminded.

Let's hope @MNHQ clears up the issue if factual, non misgendering posts are allowed. Or should be just all repeat pretty Polly for eternity?