Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues II

..sex, like gender, is a social construct... Total and utter bollocks..Not factual. Shite.

Sex is a physical reality. A woman is a physical reality that is not a man.

Gibberty, are you really starting to realise?! Are you admitting that AGP is actually a reality?!

Not AGP, no but transvestites are very different and personally I don't want to share single sex spaces with most of them.

Sex is not assigned.

Sex is noted. Its recognised. We visibly see it.

It isn't counter to science once you realise that sex, like gender, is a social construct. People aren't born into a sex - they are assigned one.

Face palm.

Gib my darling, you are quite, quite mad.

But if they subsequently obtain a GRC, with the minor gatekeeping requirements, they magically & in defiance of all available science, also change sex

It isn't counter to science once you realise that sex, like gender, is a social construct. People aren't born into a sex - they are assigned one. For most people the assignment isn't remotely contentious but for a small part of the population, the assignment turns out to be wrong and is corrected. At present that is working out at about 0.01% of the population. That's not a bad error rate.

Gibberty I do not want the moral high ground. I want spaces that are safe for me, and my daughters. Fpr all women.

I dont wish to exclude any biological female, regardless of their gender identity, or lack of.

Just to exclude males. Regardless of their gender.

Gibberty, are you really starting to realise?! Are you admitting that AGP is actually a reality?! Hooray, have a !

Biological and legal sex can be different.

I cannot see someones legal sex. I legally, can not ask for proof of it.

Nor do I care, as legal sex is rather irrelevant.

What matters is biological sex. When I see a man, it doesnt matter how his hair is, or how he is dressed. How much cosmetic surgery he has had.

It is still a man. I can not believe that is a woman, because its simply not true.

Make one concession and the push for more immediately begins...

I guess the decision is whether to fight a battle you won't win to exclude all trans men and trans women from male and female spaces, or work with trans men and women as allies on the condition both sides work to exclude the far bigger parts of the trans umbrella which make most women uncomfortable.

Personally I think it is in women's interests to say trans women are women but not other trans people. I know most here disagree but better, I suggest, to concede the point re trans women with grace to secure the moral high ground.

I'm actually trying to unpick it.

If someone self ids as trans, Gib thinks that it's misgendering if others do not accept their chosen gender.

But if they subsequently obtain a GRC, with the minor gatekeeping requirements, they magically & in defiance of all available science, also change sex.

At this point any sceptics aren't misgendering that person, they are mis-sexing them.

This is clearly mildly bonkers.

However, it draws precisely the demarcation between 'self ids into chosen gender' & 'has gone through a gatekeeping process' which the same poster is loudly proclaiming to be not only unnecessary but also fundamentally transphobia.

I've been out all evening and I'm disgusted that the Sparticus thread has been deleted.

I believe and know as a scientific fact that a person born with XY chromosomes and a penis and testicles is a boy, and will grow up to be a man. I refuse to accept his say-so that he's now a woman and can enter women's spaces.

I am for women and girls. I support their dignity, privacy and I reject any man/male who wants to invade their spaces, whether it be prisons, refuges or sports.

If Mumsnet wants to erase gender critical women and force us all to lie they should say so. Because we will never accept that a human being can change sex. Or that a man can become a woman. Or that a man who thinks he's a woman is ever entitled to erase women's rights;

And women do not want penises in women's single-sex spaces. We do not consent. The End.

Men who seek to call themselves women are still men. The End.

Make one concession and the push for more immediately begins...

Self-ID is massively sensible but that's for another time

Aww, come on. Just as you making some sense!

That's completely inconsistent with your last post differentiating between gender & sex.

Jeez. Thought we were getting somewhere.

"Fine by me. That was working fine until the calls for self-ID started."

Self-ID is massively sensible but that's for another time

Actually I think the biggest thing about autism can be struggling in social relationships

You can’t generalise like that about a spectrum condition that presents myriad ways.

It may well be that social relationships are a big challenge to your partner, but that’s not true of everyone on the spectrum.

Actually I think the biggest thing about autism can be struggling in social relationships

How about we go with gender presentation?

Your partner is absolutely welcome to that.

I would stand shoulder to shoulder with you both for your rights based on that.

But biological sex is immutable.

Maybe that is the compromise we need to get along - use only the terms biological sex or legal sex rather than just sex which means different things to different people?

Fine by me. That was working fine until the calls for self-ID started.

Battleax: But what we’re pointing out is that the basis of oppression is different. Because the biology is different.

Yes, exactly this. Women have always been oppressed because of our female biology.

Men just do not have the experience of childhood as a female and growing up as a female and female puberty etc etc etc.

Define ‘woman’.
Define ‘man’.

I just want to say thank you to @womanformallyknownaswoman. Excellent posts 👏

Me too.

It's the old "if you would just do this one thing, I'll be happy." Then when you do that one thing, surprise surprise there's the next thing you need to change.