Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues II

So you can say it a bit but not too much. How much? How many times. Do tell.

I would like some clarity on this too please. Can I use it on my first reference to TWs in each post? Or can I use it once per thread? Do I have to check whether anyone else in the thread has used it?

I know this will sound like I am trying to be annoying but I have used these kinds of clarifications in the past - as some say, it helps cut down confusion with newbies and I have generally used 'transwoman' instead of the now banned term beginning with 'T' - but I was never worried before that my attempts to express myself clearly could lead to deletions/banning.

People if you have press contacts, this is the time to use them. Mumsnet is banning women for noticing that some people are men, if it makes those men cry!

The more people point and laugh at this ridiculous rule, the better. Women on a forum for mothers are not allowed to mention biology!

Mumsnet - GET OFF YOUR KNEES!

But natal sex is the whole point.

The word transwoman automatically implies that someone's natal sex is male. What are you going to do if transwomen then say that makes them feel unwelcome & it's only acceptable to refer to them as women?

would it be childish to report every claim of "transwomen are women" as that's an implication of natal sex, which we're not allowed to mention?

It's an implied threat, echt.

So "we might delete you, we might not, we retain control over what you say, we are going to keep you on your toes so you are never quite sure whether or not you are about to be deleted/banned".

Where have we seen this before? Women being silenced, but allowed to speak sometimes. But not too much. Or too often. Just keep that little element of fear and uncertainty and worry.

It's a fucking disgrace.

Having said that TIM is not okay, it seems a bit illogical to allow other terms which hang upon natal sex.

We have now entered the Twilight Zone!

Mumsnet, you are making yourself a laughing stock!

I don’t use “transwoman” or “transman”. Trans person is fine.

But what about when you need to make a distinction between the two groups? eg there are different considerations when transwomen and transmen use women's bathrooms.

It is impossible to reconcile the desire by the vast majority of human females to have exclusive rights to callling themselves women with the desire by the relatively tiny number of trans people born with a penis also to call themselves women. It cannot be done. If it goes to referendum, human females are going to win.

I will use the terms transwomen and trans man in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY as I use the words dandelion, seahorse and snapdragon. To help me communicate about something. It does not imply or mean that I believe seahorses are horses.

"Sorry Gobberty but that's transphobic. At least, that's what I was told when I expressed concern that self ID would result in people not being able to access mental healthcare as easily (as they wouldn't automatically be referred when they started the trans process). Expecting any involvement with healthcare is not allowed and penalizing trans people who want to stay exactly as they are but presenting differently. "

Yes, I prefer self-ID for those and other reasons but gender critical women might be better with constructive criticism which considers how the present system could be improved for trans people while not going as far as self-ID which gender critical women seem to hate. Saying no without offering any constructive alternative is rarely successful.

I refuse to use transwoman . I find it offensive and I feel it is a step towards simply using woman, as seen in recent accounts of crimes reported in the press. It is deliberately eroding the actual meaning of the word woman. I also think it is misleading, my dds get confused, as to them a trans woman is a woman who feels she is trans.

Why this sudden shift ? Is it really down to the person on twitter (with three followers, ranting about Mumsnet making them suicidal) ?

I don’t use “transwoman” or “transman”. Trans person is fine.

It is on the basis of sex that women are oppressed and on that basis that women rights are founded. It is in international law that sex is the basis of the granting of women’s rights - Sheila Jeffrey's

Sex matters. Biology is not bigotry.

People cannot change sex however much they might like to assert they can.

I am now deeply confused.... the whole reason we object to transpeople in our sex-segregated spaces is because of their natal sex...at least, where they have penises, on which there seems to be common agreement. (There seems to be a mixed response to transsexuals - most happy to have "the old-fashioned unthreatening kind" but many now very disturbed by what they have learnt about autogynephilia... something I knew nothing about just six months ago).

Transwoman is clearly okay ... but there are now a large number of women who find it tough to use. I certainly am no longer feeling comfortable with it as a term, although the logic in my brain goes it is just a "seahorse" surely I can cope? But the reality is I feel very threatened by it now. Equally the challenge discussed earlier is that many males who fall under the transgender umbrella are not transwomen but crossdressers etc- so transgender males seems accurate

So the question remains - is there a term that does not include the appropriation of the word woman - and does not include natal sex..... Hmm.

I do feel that Mumsnet guidance has changed... they were previously saying TIM wasn't okay, because no one identifies as Trans, which seemed appropriate to me - and NOT because of the reference to natal sex.

But they now appear to be saying that terms used elsewhere - such as MtT and FtT in the medical world - or just the simple male transpeople are problematic.

the general term for trans people can't hang on their natal sex

What does that mean? Am I being thick?

So if posters insist that "transwomen are women", then that is not allowed?

And neither is "Transwomen are men"? Even if biologically they are.

So WOMEN on a site set up for WOMEN and MOTHERS , are made to deny biology, and lie, so that a tiny subset of male people don’t feel unwelcome ? Are you serious Mumsnet ? This is the first time I have ever thought of leaving the forum.
Are we seriously not allowed to mention now that a male person. Is a male person ? I am really, really angry about this, I think it is incredibly disturbing.
I would have to refer to Ian Huntley without mentioning the fact that this is a male, who committed crimes that are exclusively male , against children the same age as my FEMALE child ? How can we possibly discuss what is happening to women’s rights without being able to discuss the huge male push to destroy them, and the jealousy and hatred of women by males, inherent in that ?
I repeat THIS IS A SITE SET UP TO SUPPORT WOMEN.

My suspicion is that the vast majority of people who report do it maliciously at the moment and they probably also to it repeatedly.

These repeated reporters should have their activity closely monitored to see if they engage in good faith or are here to control women, restrict women's rights and erode women's legal protections.

I report quite a lot, not just on the feminist boards. Almost always because I feel someone is not posting 'in good faith' and I ask MNHQ to look at the poster's history rather than individual posts that may not, when taken in isolation, contravene guidelines.

Quite often MNHQ agree with me.

@MNHQ: Not referring to natal sex - is that a general stance or a terminology-specific thing?

So if I refer to a transwoman I’m ok? TIM is now not acceptable? Dont forget that ‘woman’ refers to natal sex as well. So literally no term which refers to natal sex is OK? Not even the medical ones like MtF? I personally think that’s dangerous territory.

Would we still able to state that transwomen remain male for example? That is biological fact. And refers to natal sex.

Terminology I suppose can be worked around (although I still disagree with language censorship) but does this extend to any discussion of natal sex? Because that really would be untenable.

If that is your absolute priority, then ask for 6 months hormones and blockers with blood tests confirm they have been taken. No man doing it for sexual reasons will persist if there is a permanent reduction / loss of male sexual function. Personally I prefer self-ID but my honest answef to your question is hormones + blockers.*

Sorry Gobberty but that's transphobic. At least, that's what I was told when I expressed concern that self ID would result in people not being able to access mental healthcare as easily (as they wouldn't automatically be referred when they started the trans process). Expecting any involvement with healthcare is not allowed and penalizing trans people who want to stay exactly as they are but presenting differently.

@KateMumsnet please can we gave a glossary pinned at the top of the board with acceptable and unacceptable terms (and why) and what they mean? We've already had people commenting that they originally thought trans woman meant someone who was female now presenting as male so I do think we need the clarity. Thanks.