Anti Semitism to increase after the government sides with Islamists

I really cant see what is complicated about having a basic definition that is the one that there has been a consensus around for a very long time. That people have their own takes on it and additional layers to it, is to be expected. The fact that Daniella Weiss adds something different is irrelevant. It doesn't change the core belief it just means the core belief lead her to a set of positions that are not the same positions that @KeepOnCleaning may hold. They are still both zionists and the core definition still has meaning.

I know what you mean but who is going to make the decision that this is the specific definition. Let's face it, Israel has still not managed to decide on a codified constitution so how on earth are they going to define something which is already interpreted so differently by so many.

Please stop over complicating it. Since when was it up to the government of Israel to decide? Its not in anyway similar to drawing up a constitution.

Then who decides?

How do you think the meaning of words is defined? Are we exceptionalising zionism for some reason?

Not just Zionism. Defining a banana is easy but how, or more to the point who, defines a word that means so many different things to so many.

@SharonEllis ,

Given as it started as a Jewish liberation movement, maybe by the Jewish community.

Perhaps listen a little more and lecture a little less?

I wouldn’t tend to lecture a black person on what BLM means do them, but maybe that is just me.

That article I linked to earlier was good and well informed.

Im not lecturing anyone - but as you know Zionism is different to zionism and ALL of my understanding of zionism comes from talking to Jewish people, those I work with, those who are my friends and those who I read. My point was a slightly different one about the way words are defined in human history, ie through concensus around usage, and I've always understood the idea of zionism as a belief in the self determination of Jewish people in Israel as coming from Jewish people. All the evidence I have ever seen is that the vast majority of Jewish peopke agree with that definition.

BLM is a good example of a movement that means different things to different people because it doesn't have a core meaning beyond the important but ill defined idea that black people's lives matter. Personally I dont think it's equivalent to zionism though there are obvious similarities.

@SharonEllis ,

I think the (upper case) Zionism is pretty obscure. I certainly didn’t know about it until I googled it today. You don’t get a lot of hits when you search for it and I have never heard any Jew that I know make the distinction. How do you specify which one you mean if it is the first word in a sentence? And who debates being a Zionist if it is about my (theoretical) emotional tie to the land of Israel?

I think we have all been debating zionism (lower case) here,

In practical terms, if someone asked me whether I was a zionist, I would be very specific about my beliefs in my answer. Yes, in the sense of Israel remaining Jewish within its original borders, no in the sense that I don’t think Jews have any god-given rights above anyone else, no in the sense that my first loyalty is to the UK and I have no intention to emigrate to Israel unless antisemitism became really really bad here.

The fact that I would be so careful in my answer suggests to me that the term isn’t well defined and that a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’ could easily be misinterpreted.

Yes, the existence of Israel is definitely being questioned by quite a few people nowadays. Enough for it to still be a concern.

I’ve even seen it here on MN - usually carefully wrapped up in ‘I’m definitely not against Jews, but couldn’t they just peacefully live somewhere else?’ or ‘Surely a one-state solution would be possible, why are they insisting on an ethnostate, anyway?

You are over complicating it. The basis premise of zionism is the same. Some add more on than others, but the idea of a Jewish state remains the same.

But no one is arguing about the basic idea of what a banana is. Some may delve into too deeply and tell you it doesn't grow on trees or is actually a berry, but the basic definition of a banana is still the same.

You seem to be singling out zionism as though making excuses for anti-Israel sentiment.

Same here!
The Palestinians deserved so much better than what Hamas gave them.

And @Newbutoldfather I'm not Jewish so have no particular skin in the game as it were. I'm sympathetic to Palestinians of course, but do not see Israel and Jews as evil 'genocidal' monsters this forum like to claim they are.

I would say the exact same thing about Islamism or Christian Nationalism. They mean very different things to many different people.