Anti Semitism to increase after the government sides with Islamists

Well clearly @OpenScroller doesn't. Maybe best to speak for yourself and not assume what other people's views are.

Did pp say every single pro-Israel poster condemned Netanyahu?

It is exactly the same as the cheering. Both absolutely horrible. What I do find the most telling of your post though is very interesting. "Some Palestinians were killed". A baby was purposefully burnt to death and then sickos at a wedding stabbed a picture of the baby while dancing to songs about setting fire to Palestinians. The singer was arrested too by the way but like all the other wedding guests, no jail time served.

To be fair, Israel did do a ceasefire while the IDF distributed vaccines, helped evacuate poorly children and helped aid get through etc.

In the middle of a war!

I'm not sure the general rule of thumb is for a country to pay for or distributed aid to a country they are at war with, but you must do.

They weren't at war with a country. They were at "war" with an open air prison already under a land, sea and air blockade. General rule of thumb, as you put it, is covered in the 4th Geneva convention about the duty of occupiers.

No they did not but it’s typical tactics to misrepresent what posters say in the hope of scoring some kind of imaginary point. I don’t really get it because we can all read and most of us have comprehension skills.

It’s true what Sharon said. People posting who are “pro Israel” regularly condemn Netanyahu, and his extremist government, and the settlers etc.

At the same time, we’re not the same person so don’t all think identically

Weren’t you one of the people arguing the other day that Palestine is already a state? Because certain politicians have said so.

Maybe that was someone else. Some on the “pro Palestinian” side seem convinced, hence we had a big debate about it.

"open air prison"? Straight off Tik Tok.
Hamas are the 2nd wealthiest terror organisation in the world.
Imagine what they could have done for Palestinians.

If they had ever cared about something other than destroying Israel.

Tiktok?? Nah, that came straight from the mouth of our Prime Minister for one. Do you really think Netanyahu funded them for years so they could build a new Dubai while under a total blockade, with a declared policy to "put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger" (Dov Weisglass, 2006) and periodically mow the grass. No one believes that propaganda any more.

@SharonEllis and @ForRedPoet ,

You are both conflating Hamas and the Palestinians. No different from conflating the Netanyahu government with ‘Israelis’, in some ways worse as at least Israel has had elections reasonably recently.

The Palestinian civilians have been let down by both Hamas and the Israelis. That’s not uncommon in brutal dictatorships. I would say the same is true of the Russian people, let down by both the international community and by Putin.

The ‘open air prison’ claim also holds some truth. They are behind a wall (well before 7/10) and they can’t go anywhere. And Israel controls all their utilities, food and water. It is wrong in that they were free to move anywhere within Gaza, mix, work in proper jobs etc.

The majority of Palestinians support Hamas.The majority of Israelis now support expanding settlements for their security. In 2025 a survey found that 82% of Israelis supported the forcible expulsion of Palestinians from Gaza. Should we bomb Israel for supporting ethnic cleansing?!

The reality is, as I keep saying, that both populations have become radicalised and it will take the international community to pressure both sides into coming to the negotiating table.

Claim and counterclaim about how horrid the civilians are on both sides won’t advance anything.

How? I was being very clear that Palestinians had been let down by Hamas. That was kinda the point.

I didn't say anything about how 'horrid' the civilians are. I said Hamas might have done something for civilians if they had ever cared about anything other than destroying Israel. God, I wish people would read what is written.

I've been reading this thread rather than commenting because these discussions so often become unpleasant, but I do wish there was more willingness to understand what someone on the other side actually believes, even if you still completely disagree with them afterwards.

I'm Jewish and I would describe myself as a Zionist because I believe Israel should continue to exist as a Jewish state. I also believe Palestinians should have their own state, I oppose settlement expansion and I am perfectly capable of being highly critical of the Israeli government. None of those things feel remotely contradictory to me.

Someone else can understand that this is what I mean by Zionism and still think I'm completely wrong. That's fine. In the same way, I can try to understand what someone means when they describe themselves as anti-Zionist rather than assuming the worst possible interpretation of it.

What I find increasingly depressing is the insistence that everyone has to fit into one of two camps, with a whole set of beliefs then attributed to them accordingly. As Pink said this week about the Ed Sheeran concert, "I refuse the binary."
Understanding another person's position isn't the same thing as agreeing with it. I wish there was more of that in these discussions.

Its also why posters are so often misunderstood. Once you say you are a zionist on here then you are in a box with a predetermined set of beliefs and attitudes. It wont matter how many times you say that you 'also believe Palestinians should have their own state, I oppose settlement expansion and I am perfectly capable of being highly critical of the Israeli government.'

I've said it before but I don't believe a two state solution would work, certainly not in this climate. I can see Israel allowing another much larger Gaza as a Palestinian state where they totally dominate it. I cannot see them allowing a fully independent functioning state with all the associated characteristics such as a defense force, international airport, etc. The most interesting proposal I have seen is the "A Land for All" movement.
https://www.alandforall.org/english-vision/
If enough Palestinians and Israelis had the will, it could work.

@SharonEllis ,

I don’t think Zionist is a useful word any more. I am a Zionist in that I believe that Israel should exist within its 1967 borders and remain Jewish. But, like all words, its meanings change over time and many people think it means pro Israel come-what-may and even pro expansionism.

If you are ‘perfectly able’ to be critical, I suggest you go for it occasionally. I think it is behoven upon the diaspora to be critical, especially of the outright racist agenda of the religious parties (of Ben G’vir and Smotrich).

@Squeezingwildoranges ,

We’ve had this discussion before.

I don’t see how your proposed solution would ever guarantee security for Jewish people. Germany guaranteed rights for all pre the Holocaust, which was how Israel came into being.

The trust isn’t there and it’s not the reality on the ground anyway. It is too utopian. I appreciate its theoretical justice, but as long as people are people and antisemitism exists, we need a Jewish state run by Jewish leaders (not religious ideally).

Thank you for you very personalised, but entirely misplaced advice. I am not Jewish.

I have noticed that redefining zionism has become a new ploy in this debate. I am not playing that game.

I don’t think Zionist is a useful word any more.

I have to admit I get confused by it. It absolutely made sense before Israel was created, but Israel is here it exists and has done for long before I was born so many, understandably, feel that zionism has evolved to stand for the push for a greater Israel with the expulsion of Palestinians from the region. This is often why people claim to be anti-zionist because they no longer link it to the establishment of Israel but with the expansion of Israel and their illegal settlements. Constantly telling these people they are antisemitic is unhelpful when it is down to interpretation of the word and unfortunately the obvious current israeli expansionist plans

@SharonEllis ,

OK, apologies,

This is an interesting article on Zionism. The original Zionist movement believed that all Jews should move to Israel. Clearly diaspora zionists don’t believe this. It is written by someone who teaches Zionism at uni.

theconversation.com/what-is-zionism-the-different-meanings-of-a-contested-term-285771

So I don’t think Zionism is well defined.

Why do antisemites want zionism to mean something different? That's the question you need to ask yourself. People say they are confused, the word is changing. So don't use it. Say what you mean. If you object to settlements say, 'I object to settlements'. How does saying ' I am antizionist' and expecting people to know you are talking about settlements help.

The only reason for non Jewish people to obscure the meaning of zionism is to provide cover for antisemitism. There is no need to play the game unless you want to.

I think there's a difference between saying that the word Zionism has acquired different connotations for different people, which I agree it has, and actually redefining what Zionism means. @Newbutoldfather has just told you what being a Zionist means to them: Israel continuing to exist as a Jewish state, within the 1967 borders. That isn't some new definition of Zionism. You can disagree with Zionism, but I don't think it's reasonable to tell someone who identifies as a Zionist that what they really believe in is expansion, settlements and the expulsion of Palestinians when they've just explicitly told you that they don't.
And I think this comes back to what I was saying earlier about listening to what people on the other side actually say they believe, rather than assigning a whole set of beliefs to them because of a label.

This really isnt hard. A Jewish zionist person in the diaspora believes Israel should exist and that it exists for the self determination of the Jewish people if they want it. It doesn't mean they all have to go and live there.

I know it sounds Utopian but as I have said before, Deir Yassin and Givet Shaul lived happily as neighbours for decades. If you told a black South African in early 1993 that in a years time you would be voting in the countries elections, they would not have believed a word of it. They would have thought it would be an impossible dream.

"I don’t see how your proposed solution would ever guarantee security for Jewish people." All though I understand the sentiment and appreciate it after what happened in the holocaust, that really is going to be the biggest stumbling block to peace. As long as Israel believes that the only path to security is total hegemony, there will never be peace. At some point there has to be a level of trust and I believe that would be achieved much faster if some Israeli's lived happily in the Palestinian state and some Palestinians lived happily in the Israeli state.