Is everyone, everywhere ND - I seriously am confused.

Sounds like my dd when she was 11 and already diagnosed nd. Fortunately despite judgy people who think they know my child better than I do, the salt and other assessors got a full demonstration of her autistic traits and our (nhs) diagnosis was very straight forward. Oh and spoiler, ND people can also like dancing and hanging out with mates, perfume, lattes and lipgloss. What makes you assume someone who is ND can't possibly like those things? How strange.

I say in my post that if could be but seriously being ratty and grumpy after school is very normal behaviour for a kid that age, it doesn't always mean it's autism and there are dangers to over diagnosis as well.

I don't ridicule anyone and I didn't say my friends situation represented all kids and not your kids either. You are being very reactive in a way that makes little sense. After all if people go about labelling isolated behavioural traits as autism then that only undermines kids who really are autistic and if diagnosis is expanded to such a broad degree then it actively take support away from kids like yours.

@Gresley plenty of autistic people in the war effort, the interest in planes/trains/tanks is pretty well documented 🤣

but why are you pointing that out? NT people also use excuses for poor performance. Why are you specifically focusing on ND people who might do it? What's your point here, exactly?

Their point is that they're just misunderstood when they're talking about genuine issues in the workplace. Just like if I talked about my genuine worry that black people in the office were under performing, my concern is clearly about why people are allowed to underperform, and nothing to do with my thoughts about black people. Obviously.

I haven't read the entire thread, so I might be repeating what others have said.

Back in 60s and 70s life was less complicated, less busy, less screens, more outdoorsy.

Schools weren't over regulated, no national curriculum rolling relentlessly on whether you were keeping up or not, the emphasis wasn't predominantly on academic subjects, there were plenty of "basic jobs" available for school leavers.

There were ASD students, but they were catered for - usually called remedial, which wasn't great in hindsight, but they were not pressured into feeling they had to achieve academically. I lived in a rural setting and many of the 4th/5th years (now Y10/Y11) in the remedial group were spending chunks of the school day on local farms learning practical things or did extra woodworking/metalworking/cookery etc.

There weren't as many meltdowns because kids were less pressured.

And life beyond school was different. No computers meant lots of practical jobs available in all industries. Someone with ND could find a niche and fit in under the radar.

I also think our diets were better then. Hardly any UPFs.

We played out and ran around, no overstimulation from screens. And our days were generally less busy. We didn't go out every day to soft play or other local attractions, we didn't need to "decompress".

Life is changing very rapidly but we evolve to cope with it very slowly.

No not obviously, there is a distinct whiff of prejudice.

I don't know about your kids, I am not arguing with their diagnosis at all but this girl is not diagnosed. I think many parents on here or those diagnosed are projecting into posts and getting triggered by situations that are not their own and taking as a personal insult things that have nothing to do with them.

I myself have a ND diagnosis but I still have the ability to take take a step back and think critically about myself, others and the situation we have in this area in the UK at the moment. It's clear many kids are being failed but the answer isn't always a diagnosis, for some it might be but for many it isn't and shouldn't be and we need to be able to have that conversation without it being shut down prematurely. As I say elsewhere, overdiagnosis or casual use of these labels actually takes away from the kid, like your daughter who really does need extra support.

I'm on a waiting list for ADHD and autism assessment. Born in the 80s, never mentioned as far as I know. But was I impacted? 100%
I was (and am) a high achiever and a good student, but every few days, (weeks or months as I got older and better at masking in public) I would have a "tantrum" during which I felt completely out of control. I would scream, shout, I couldn't catch my breath, I beat my head against walls and hit myself in the face. Teachers would always say how out of character it was and why wouldn't I control myself. It was sometimes deemed a parenting issue (by the GP when my mum sought help) - my parents were amazing, my mum worked with kids with SEN and did everything she could for me) and attention seeking or just immature emotional skills by teachers.
Eventually I learned to mask but I would meltdown at home, screaming and crying that something was wrong with me, that I wasn't normal, that I needed help, but noone ever helped me. I went to university, again I outwardly seemed to excel but at home I'd be hysterical and tearing my hair out trying to figure out why I was different and why everything felt so hard. I still have meltdowns and push myself way too far and become overwhelmed. I have suffered so much with my mental health.

My daughter, for comparison, was diagnosed autistic at 8. She gets support in school, she has teachers and parents and health professionals who understand that she might need some things done differently. She gets some pre warning of changes at school, she can use fidget toys and uses a chewy necklace and ear defenders, and can sit in the library if wet play or free time gets too much for her. That's it really. She has had some emotional literacy support sessions and play therapy to learn strategies to regulate herself. She has a spinny chair at home and a quiet space in her room if she needs more or less stimulation... Meltdowns were frequent but are becoming much less so. She's happy. She's learning. She has friends and if she doesn't feel comfortable with something she knows why, is confident to advocate for herself and does it her own way.

I suppose you think she'd be better off like I was?

Snap @AnonMama87 . It only occurred to me recently how different my childhood would have been if I had been allowed to be myself, and how glad I am that my own daughter's has been so much better.

But it’s well known that both autism and adhd are under diagnosed in this country and that what is needed is action to reduce the NHS waiting lists so people aren’t left to go private or self diagnose. The NHS task force has already highlighted this and how under diagnosis and lack of access to treatment and support is costing the UK billions.

The 'obviously' was sarcasm, my point was that if you changed the subject to talk about black people rather than ND people it is extremely clear how prejudiced it is. No one would allow such blatant racism, but many still have a blind spot for blatant disablism.

Yes, the phone and screens with the young kids is truly disturbing.

I do wonder how many 'adjustments' people on here think those who are neurodiverse are getting.
In my workplace (softy softy public sector) the adjustments that I'm aware of (and I know this because I'm part of a workplace group) include:

None (for the majority)
Ability to work from home occasionally (a benefit that is extended to everyone)
Being allowed to work in a quieter part of the office, or in a different building (it's mainly hotdesking so again, anyone really can use this if they want to)
Being sent a photo of where they're going if they're required to go to a new site
Being allowed to have their camera off in teams calls occasionally
Being allowed to block out their diary for uninterrupted time to do a task (again, anyone can do this if their job role allows it)
Being allowed to use software, such as dragon for dyslexia, or co pilot.

I'm not sure which of those are taking anything away from anyone who is NT, or would be considered an excessive drain on resources.

I think some of the problem is that some (and I stress the some , it's absolutely not all) parents of ND children don't seem to think that their children should ever be held accountable for anything they do. ND people can choose to misbehave, choose to bully/be cruel/be mean just as much as NT people can. Being ND does not automatically absolve people of any responsibility for their actions. Some parents will refuse any sort of consequences for their child and I think that's incredibly unhelpful to both the child and other people around them.

You do realise that all the naughty disruptive kids aren’t all ND, many ND are beautifully behaved to the extent they fall under the radar,some parents of ND don’t want the diagnosis and don’t support it and most parents who do support a diagnose want their kids to do well and utilise the diagnose to promote better outcomes. This myth being set out on here that all the naughty kids are ND and their parents use it as an excuse is nothing short of prejudice and ableism.

Isn't that just some parents in general?

I'm undiagnosed but I also used to have "tantrums" well beyond the age that I should have. I can vividly remember running to my bedroom and flinging myself around, screaming and shaking and needing to be left alone but my parents would always follow me and I'd end up screaming at them, I'd be punished for days. But I remember feeling so out of control of myself and being absolutely terrified by it. I just thought I was a bad person.

I remember having to force myself to make eye contact with people, and I was relentlessly bullied in primary school, I was just weird and different. I taught myself how to have conversations over the summer before secondary and I studied people constantly and practiced in my bedroom for hours, I managed to make myself a small group of friends (funnily enough most of them are diagnosed now)

As an older teen I went completely off the rails, did extremely risky things and put myself in danger a lot. At school I would keep it together for fear of what my parents would do/say but eventually I couldn't do it anymore and I ended up dropping out and being a complete mess for a couple of years.

I don't know if any of this makes me ND, maybe I'm not but I can certainly see how things are better for kids like me nowadays.

Yes of course I do, but there is plenty of posts all over the internet with people saying their child can't have consequences or whatever because they are ND.

Yes it is, but when they are backing up their statements with "my child is ND therefore you can't give them consequences" it's very hard for teachers to push back on that. It's also a bit insulting to ND people to try and say they have no control over what they do, which is what these parents are trying to say.

And plenty of posts online with parents excusing all sorts of behaviours without ND.

Yes, I'm not talking about those on this thread though because it's specifically about ND. I'm talking about the parents who use the ND as an excuse for awful cruel behaviour. I've seen it first hand quite a few times (and online a lot).

No, that is not what I mean at all. I don't think there's overmedicalisation because girls and women are being diagnosed. I think there's overmedicalisation because the diagnostic criteria for autism and other conditions are bullshit.

I'm a teacher, and autistic.

You're right, there weren't the troubling diagnoses in the 70s. Instead, people like me got diagnosed with psychosomatic illnesses and then (in my case) childhood schizophrenia - and I was ruthlessly medicated, every week, and spent my entire childhood in a total blur. I was one of those frequently in hospital (not ill, mentally completely burned out) and off school. My reports (all of which I still have) read like a car crash. I wasn't particularly successful when I left school.

I only realised that I wasn't actually 'mental' when I was working in a clinical neuroscience research setting. Plus, my sister, who's 20 years older than me, was supporting one of her grandchildren through an autism assessment and she contacted me saying '[insert name] I'm pretty sure you're autistic'. Getting the (NHS) diagnosis and then the weekly therapy to help me process what the hell I'd been through and how to manage my autism literally saved my life. I went from crushing anxiety, agoraphobia, depression, disordered eating, etc., to completing a degree, getting a First, training to be a teacher and ending up on the rapid promotion track.

My own grandchild, who's female, is also autistic. Thankfully, we were able to spot this super early. With the correct support, she was able to handle her ARFID, stay in school (mostly) and pop out with some great GCSE results. She started college last week. Her life is already a success.

On the other hand, we also have to accept that we live in a society where children aren't routinely screened for FAS and many of those children receive an autism / ADHD diagnosis because that's how their symptoms present. It's about time that we explored the links between poverty (of expectation and ambition) and housing in terms of children's ability to cope. And screen time is literally rewiring our young people's brains (see above re: clinical neuroscience research setting). This produces a complex picture. In one sense, I do think ND is being over diagnosed, however, in another I think that this possibly really doesn't matter if the symptoms match.