Dh says the U.K is f***** and he never wants to go back

Whilst statistics can be twisted to suit someone's purpose (like the deliberate combining of groups of immigrants with very different characteristics, as I mentioned above) they are the only way to make evidence-based policy.

Which does tend to have better outcomes than ideology-based policy.

At least you are honest. Reform has hidden for so long behind the lie that it’s illegal economic migrants it doesn’t like.

I'm not a Reform voter.

I am against immigration which is harmful to the UK - of any type.

I am supportive of immigration which benefits the UK.

I think it's far less difficult to tell the difference than many on the Left pretend.

I think it’s far more difficult to do anything about it than the Right acknowledge. The rest of the world has something to say about how other countries behave. We are reliant on the rest of the world to survive and prosper - we can’t even feed ourselves, we are reliant on the rest of the world to provide us with food and other resources. Trying to “send people back” when we don’t even know exactly where they come from, or when the other countries refuse them, is not that easy. Machine gunning them as their boats come ashore is not a good look.

Not all harmful immigration is illegal, and we have complete control over what visas we issue.

As for illegal immigration, Australia reduced unauthorized maritime arrivals by more than 80% within the first 100 days of Operation Sovereign Borders and brought arrivals down by over 99% compared to peak levels in 2013.

And you need a bit more confidence in the UK's position in the world. We can make substantially different choices without it having a material impact on how other countries trade and cooperate with us.

The difficulty is domestic not international.

It's a choice - or should be.

I took the grandchildren out this morning to crazy golf in a nearby village. I sat at a table adjoining two lovely couples. The first their son had got into a local college so they came up to visit. Ended up selling up in Kent and buying a house here, they'd never go back.

The other couple with their young children, visit the first couple often. They'd love to leave Kent but both parents have jobs there that aren't available here. Her family are in Cumbria again no jobs locally.

Yeah - the same argument as with Brexit, we’re so powerful in the world on our own, we should be more patriotic and confident, we don’t need the EU, they need us, yada yada. We have roundly proven that we are at the mercy of the world markets and the rest of the world and not the other way round.

And it’s a bit laughable comparing what we can do with a country that is effectively also an entire continent with no geographically close neighbours.

This isn’t correct. The distance at some points was close enough for similar size, unsafe, overcrowded small boats to cross.

The numbers doing so were high.

I think you are in France or Netherlands as these are the easiest places to go for Americans visa wise. ( Netherlands has the DAFT treaty) and daft it is too in my opinion as has contributed towards their horrendous housing crisis and France has a relatively easy long term visitor visa . As someone who came back in 2022 from Copenhagen due to an elderly parent crisis, I get his point- my H has never properly settled and hates the Reform uptick and the fact that lots of things don’t function I get his point ( and we live in a very nice small city) I think you have to be realistic about what you are coming back for too - I missed my friends a lot when away, friends I made quite late in life, but in the last few years they have all drifted , so it’s not the same at all-what I would say our options now are far more limited in areas my H would actually want to live whilst still working as we went just pre Brexit - so maybe have a think about all aspects .

There is no realistic comparison between Australia’s ocean borders and the English Channel between the UK and mainland Europe.

There is. It was close enough for thousands to cross. The proof is in the numbers.

It’s not just about the simplistic question of how many people are trying to cross, though, is it. It’s about how busy the waters are, what else goes on in those overcrowded waters besides illegal boat crossings, how your closest neighbours react to what you are doing, whereabouts in the world most refugees are currently fleeing from, what the economic and political state of the rest of the world is at the time, how close you are to the mainland of a hugely populated continent of many countries, who in the world it is you are pissing off when you refuse to take any responsibility for people absolutely nobody else wants to take responsibility for either, etc, etc.

It’s more a question of how citizens vote and external courts. Australians are bipartisan on this and even the left won’t overturn it. They also don’t have an external court system.

As for global reaction, Australia is fine, we’d be the same, although I’d predict more would follow.

We clearly are not the same. There are also not enough offshore countries willing and able to accept the whole of the rest of the world’s unwanted human detritus. Our military can’t control the English channel as though it belongs to us alone and forcibly push all migrants back in the direction of France - they won’t react to that remotely like Australia’s neighbours would. If we think the straits of Hormuz are a problem with Iran making it difficult for ships to get through, that’s nothing compared to the problems the UK would have if France viewed our actions as directly hostile to France. We live in an interconnected world, not just on an island. We cannot do anything without co-operation.

Then, of course, there is the issue that once you have persuaded people that some other humans are expendable and you inevitably discover that stopping migration hasn’t actually achieved the promised end, you have to turn on other groups to blame for the continuing problems, and when that doesn’t work, you either have to keep your head down and hope you aren’t picked on next, or try to fight back against the dictatorship you accidentally voted in.

What exactly do you think will happen?

Then, of course, there is the issue that once you have persuaded people that some other humans are expendable and you inevitably discover that stopping migration hasn’t actually achieved the promised end, you have to turn on other groups to blame for the continuing problems, and when that doesn’t work, you either have to keep your head down and hope you aren’t picked on next, or try to fight back against the dictatorship you accidentally voted in.

What would you say has already happened? Has the US shown the rest of the world that war boat diplomacy works? How do you think France would react to the UK pushing boats back to France and not helping to rescue people if the boats sink? What countries in reality would be willing and able to host all our unwanted migrants at reasonable cost? Or are you proposing the death penalty, enacted in the UK, for anyone who comes here illegally?

It's not 'treating other people as expendable' to enforce our borders and our immigration policy: policy which we define with the UK's benefit as the goal.

We really can't bring the whole world up to the same standard of living as the UK. There is no moral high ground in bankrupting the UK trying.

As for "the dictatorship you accidentally voted in", it's notably always the Left who are authoritarian - trying to suppress any opinions different to their own. Even on this thread, Ms 'You can't be trusted with the truth'

How has Australia's 'Operation Sovereign Borders' changed the way any country trades and interacts with it?

(apart from 99% of illegal immigrants who no longer come to Australia, of course)

Where has your death penalty hysteria come from?! Do you imagine that Australia murdered the illegal immigrants it turned back?

It is notably not always the Left that are authoritarian. The Nazis were not left wing. The Tsars of Russia were not left wing. Genghis Khan was not left wing. Politics is politics. Psychopaths are psychopaths, they use whatever suits them at the time.

@Walkaroundsame as pp what has happened to Australia? Other than all citizens in agreement that the policies should never be voted out.

I am asking you about the UK and Europe - I have already pointed out it is a fantasy to pretend Australia’s behaviour in 2013 can be replicated in the English Channel in 2026. We can’t send our unwanted immigrants to the same places Australia sent theirs back to - it’s a bit far removed.