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Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! - Thread 2

741 replies

CohensDiamondTeeth · 03/12/2025 07:41

I hope no one minds me starting thread 2, I clicked post on my last reply but the thread had filled up.

There was some interesting discussion had, and on the last page @LostMySocks posted that she was thinking of sending a positive email to HQ, which I think sounds like a great idea. Maybe those who support this move could do the same? It would show Girl Guides that people are paying attention.

Link to the first thread here: Girl Guides are now GIRL ONLY! | Mumsnet

The first post of the thread was so good I'm just going to copy and paste it here too. Girl Guides statement is incredibly begrudging in tone.

@Iamwhoiamwhoareyou · Yesterday 14:41

Following April's supreme court ruling, the Girl Guides have FINALLY made a statement and will remain GIRLS ONLY - Finally closing the door on admitting trans members or allowing BOYS to invade female only spaces/camp (which, would be done without informing parents that their daughter would be sharing a room with a biological male!) - I have a previous post in feminism chat for anyone wanting to read the previous thread on this

EMAIL RECEIVED HOT OFF THE PRESS 5 MIN AGO -

As the parent of a young member in Girlguiding, following April’s Supreme Court decision relating to sex and gender, we wanted to give you an update. Many organisations across the country have been facing complex decisions about what it means for girls and women and for the wider communities affected, including us.

Girlguiding’s governing charity documents set out that the membership and people who benefit from our organisation are girls and women. In April, the Supreme Court ruled that girls and women are defined in the Equality Act 2010 by their biological sex at birth.
Following detailed considerations, expert legal advice and input from senior members, young members and our Council, Girlguiding’s Board of Trustees has made the difficult decision that Girlguiding must change Girlguiding must change, following the Supreme Court’s ruling.

From today, 2 December, it is with a heavy heart that we are announcing trans girls and young women will no longer be able to join Girlguiding. This is a decision we would have preferred not to make, and we know that this may be upsetting for members of our community.

There will be no immediate changes for current young members but more information will be shared next week.

Most adult roles, including unit helpers, district helpers and administrative support, are already open to all, so we are confident that no volunteers will have to leave the organisation.

Girlguiding believes strongly in our value of inclusion, and we will continue to support young people and adults in marginalised groups. Over the next few months, we'll explore opportunities to champion this value and actively support young people who need us.

You can find our full statement and updated policy on our website.

We are proud to be the UK’s largest youth organisation dedicated to girls and is focused on creating an equal world for girls and young women. For over 100 years, we have been a welcoming space for all girls to have new experiences, support their communities, build friendships and grow their confidence.

While Girlguiding may feel a little different going forward, these core aims and principles will always be the same. We remain committed to treating everyone with dignity and respect, particularly those from marginalised groups that have felt the biggest impact of this decision.

If you have any immediate questions, we have our special support team in place, to give volunteers, parents and carers the best support we can. We are asking Girlguiding HQ, trading and country/region staff to refer any volunteer or parent who has questions about this announcement. Details below.

Contact [email protected] or 020 7532 3970
All calls/emails will be confidential, and the service will be open 24hrs, 7 days a week.
Find out more, including how this team will handle personal data.

Denise Wilson (Chair of Trustees), Felicity Oswald (CEO) and Tracy Foster (Chief Guide)

https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/globalassets/docs-and-resources/mango-data-privacy-policy.pdf?utm_campaign=1859632_EDI%20update%20for%20parents%202%20December%202025&utm_medium=email&utm_source=dotdigitalemails

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24
InterIgnis · 04/12/2025 20:21

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 19:57

Her social group - and female friends - all went to the local Brownies. There is no option for Scouts where we live anyway.

Show quote history

Then he doesn’t go to brownies, much like the other boys that also can’t go. That he wants to does not mean that he is entitled to.

Helleofabore · 04/12/2025 20:20

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 20:07

Well at least I've broken new ground somewhere, I suppose.

Does it solve the problem though?

I am not talking about lowering safeguarding standards because bans of males do not automatically raise levels of safety.

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Please explain your thinking here in detail?

Why don’t you believe that banning all male people from single sex provisions does not raise safety for female people?

Catiette · 04/12/2025 20:19

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 20:14

Where are the workings for the threat that my child poses to the other girls in her brownie group?

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What, from all our conversation of recent days, on earth makes you think I'd ask that, unless bad faith again?

I literally quote what I'm asking about above - you refer, as I understand it, to generic banS of maleS. The full quote is (my own, irritable, I'll admit, capitals):

"However BLANKET banS of maleS in same sex spaceS does not solve THE ISSUE of abuse."

I mean, you wrote it, for goodness sake! 😂

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 20:14

Catiette · 04/12/2025 20:10

Now feeling like I really am a teacher...

bans of males do not automatically raise levels of safety.

Could you provide your workings for that?

(I'd offer the reams of evidence that counters it, but think others have already. Let me know if not. One was, just to drop it in again, my developing world charities question...)

Where are the workings for the threat that my child poses to the other girls in her brownie group?

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 20:13

Catiette · 04/12/2025 20:08

PS Solid, I know my latest question, a few posts above, was, on rereading, phrased embarrassingly like a sixthform Ethics homework task (sorry!) - but would seriously like your views on it. No essay required. Feedback, but (you'll be pleased to hear!) no marks will be offered.

Ha! I saw it but it's quite a biggy, might have to be for another day. How long do these threads stay open for?

Catiette · 04/12/2025 20:10

Now feeling like I really am a teacher...

bans of males do not automatically raise levels of safety.

Could you provide your workings for that?

(I'd offer the reams of evidence that counters it, but think others have already. Let me know if not. One was, just to drop it in again, my developing world charities question...)

Catiette · 04/12/2025 20:08

PS Solid, I know my latest question, a few posts above, was, on rereading, phrased embarrassingly like a sixthform Ethics homework task (sorry!) - but would seriously like your views on it. No essay required. Feedback, but (you'll be pleased to hear!) no marks will be offered.

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 20:07

Catiette · 04/12/2025 19:58

It's always good to see a new argument, though, Helle. I mean, even for me as a relative newbie to the cause, it's literally been years.

Well at least I've broken new ground somewhere, I suppose.

Does it solve the problem though?

I am not talking about lowering safeguarding standards because bans of males do not automatically raise levels of safety.

Catiette · 04/12/2025 20:03

Actually, something similar was used by one man I remember, whose argument quite genuinely was that we're in large part responsible for provoking male violence against females by requesting some spaces away from, well... males. That was a good 'un. But it's the closest I can get.

Helleofabore · 04/12/2025 20:00

Catiette · 04/12/2025 19:58

It's always good to see a new argument, though, Helle. I mean, even for me as a relative newbie to the cause, it's literally been years.

I know! I almost missed it too! Good thing I went back and reread as I often do to make sure I have the right end of the stick!!

Catiette · 04/12/2025 19:58

It's always good to see a new argument, though, Helle. I mean, even for me as a relative newbie to the cause, it's literally been years.

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 19:57

lifeturnsonadime · 04/12/2025 19:29

However blanket bans of males in same sex spaces does not solve the issue of abuse, as well as aggravating the many women who would stand with my trans daughter over this issue.

@SolidMam

Third spaces would solve that but that's not something that the trans community seem to want.

To bring back to this thread, your son could have achieved that in the Scouts, but you chose the single sex organisation instead.

Edited

Her social group - and female friends - all went to the local Brownies. There is no option for Scouts where we live anyway.

Helleofabore · 04/12/2025 19:56

“However blanket bans of males in same sex spaces does not solve the issue of abuse, as well as aggravating the many women who would stand with my trans daughter over this issue.”

I do have to commend this though. This is one fucking novel approach. You can’t blanket ban male people from same sex spaces because this will aggravate all those people who support my male child accessing those female single sex spaces.

Like aggravating people who support low safeguarding standards is a reason to continue low fucking safeguarding standards!

I didn’t think I would see this one. But it is yet another demonstration of how you simply have no knowledge on the foundation principles of safeguarding.

🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩 that is another red flag statement right there .

Catiette · 04/12/2025 19:54

Great.

Genuinely interested in the below, if you feel able to answer? (Pasted from previous page).

Can you tell me (and please answer this one - I'm feeling a bit ignored!) why charities advocate for female-only toilets in the developing world (with reference to your convictions that including males doesn't increase risk, and blanket bans don't solve abuses?) Do you think campaigns for such facilities are unethical? If not, why would you support them over there, but not over here?

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 19:52

Catiette · 04/12/2025 19:24

Sorry for prolonged editing of the above. A bad habit. Wanted to extend my recommendation to Solid. (And be v. accurate re. what I'd found).

Edited

Time to Think - I'll look that up, thank you @Catiette

Throckmorton · 04/12/2025 19:52

It's got quite speedy round here! Apart from replies to your very sensible questions that is ...

Catiette · 04/12/2025 19:51

Got it. That's awful, but not surprising, sadly. I find it interesting that this implicitly recognises which side is most (exclusively, almost!) associated with threats and demonstrations of physical violence and intimidation - yet they still see this one as The Side Of Right.

Catiette · 04/12/2025 19:49

I'm so sorry, I've got totally lost. I thought I'd caught everything!

Throckmorton · 04/12/2025 19:47

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This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

@Catiette This one - but you need to look at the edit history

Catiette · 04/12/2025 19:47

How about this approach, Solid?

Can you tell me (and please answer this one - I'm feeling a bit ignored!) why charities advocate for female-only toilets in the developing world (with reference to your convictions that including males doesn't increase risk, and blanket bans don't solve abuses?) Do you think campaigns for such facilities are unethical? If not, why would you support them over there, but not over here?

Hoardasurass · 04/12/2025 19:46

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 13:11

I would say because not all transwomen are rapists, but I know that's not going to go down well given the obvious historic connotations to that argument.

And of course - if a female feels unsafe, then I hope she would be able to express that and have her needs respectfully met. I hope there would be dialogue.

Abusers of all women are almost always born male. It just so happens that so are transwomen - and that some abusers have potentially latched on to the gender identity to facilitate abuse. And some tranwomen are abusive misogynists in their own right.

It doesn't make them all worthy of the same treatment.

Show quote history

Yes it does because they are male and we keep all males out even the nice ones, why because they don't have rapist, pedophile etc tattooed on their foreheads so we don't know which are safe and nice and which aren't so safeguarding insists absolutely no males.
Hope that helps

Catiette · 04/12/2025 19:44

This reply has been deleted

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Have you guys got lost from your own thread, or have I got lost in this thread? I can't find what you're talking about...

Catiette · 04/12/2025 19:42

Also from that post:

I'm not sure I said that mixed sexed facilities improved the safety of females.

You did. I think the exact wording was "better for everyone", because it struck me at the time, although I've not been able to find it to check.

I did say that there is not necessarily a heightened threat because males are present, which is true.

But you also, elsewhere, clearly acknowledge that males are by far and away the majority of perpetrators of abuse.

I would also expect that any mixed sex toilet/changing provision are fiercely risk assessed so that they are not inherently dangerous places to be.

Risk assessment identifies risk, it doesn't mitigate it.

Have you seen my thrice-posted questions?

Helleofabore · 04/12/2025 19:41

SolidMam · 04/12/2025 19:24

It's awful to read this.

I'm not sure I said that mixed sexed facilities improved the safety of females.

I did say that there is not necessarily a heightened threat because males are present, which is true. If there is a male abuser present then of course it is less safe. It depends on the male, the context and setting.

This of course is little comfort to those who are abused.

I would also expect that any mixed sex toilet/changing provision are fiercely risk assessed so that they are not inherently dangerous places to be.

It's come back to toilets once again and for good reason. Obviously I do not want to be accused of being permissive to abusers.

However blanket bans of males in same sex spaces does not solve the issue of abuse, as well as aggravating the many women who would stand with my trans daughter over this issue.

Show quote history

"However blanket bans of males in same sex spaces does not solve the issue of abuse, as well as aggravating the many women who would stand with my trans daughter over this issue."

Shall I repost all the posts that I posted a few pages back about safeguarding principles and discrimination?

You obviously have not bothered to read them and engage with them, but I will repost if it means you will read them.

Safeguarding = ALL male people are blanket banned on the basis of sex as that is the only legitimate discrimination that is acceptable if something has been labelled with the words 'female', 'girls' or 'women.'

Just not every male person with a transgender identity is an abuser, nor is 'ALL men and boys'. Yet, safeguarding policy excludes them ALL. Because no 'risk assessment' can be done on who is entering a publicly accessed provision.

It is fucking irrelevant if it aggravates you and your friends. Unless you have fully informed consent from every single female person (and as a safeguarding expert you will know that children cannot consent) then you and your friends who are aggravated cannot change the fact that not every female person using the provision has consented to male people above the age of about 8 being there.

DefinitelyNotDainty · 04/12/2025 19:41

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