Toilet provision for men and women: call for evidence - Government Consultation

[stumbledin]

Not sure of the closing date for this but more details at www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence

" ... The government wants to ensure dignity and respect for all. The Equality Act provides that sex, age, disability and gender reassignment are protected characteristics. This does not mean that gender-specific toilets should be replaced with gender-neutral toilets. But there should be balanced consideration of how the needs of all those with protected characteristics should be considered, based on the mix of the population and customer demand.

As part of this review, the merits of any best practice guidance on the provision of a gender-neutral toilet, as part of a wider balanced mix of gender-specific male and female toilets – where space allows – will be considered, alongside the interaction with the necessary provision of access to disabled toilets.

These considerations also include provision for older people, and for parents with very young children who need changing facilities. ... "

@MaudTheInvincible

The link you provided also appears to be a self-selected survey, can that really be called 'statistics'? Doubtful. Also, where are the corresponding data from women for the just as vulnerable comparison?

While statistical analysis isn't my area, I really don't think that survey provides any reliable or relevant evidence for your claim that The statistics tell us that trans people just as vulnerable to abuse as cisgendered women; so do you have something else?

If you're not convinced by this then I'll try and put something together for you later today!

I think trans women at any point of surgery should be able to use our toilets.

Hi abi

At what point of surgery do you think they should be allowed in? There are many surgeries available to men transitioning like hair removal, facial feminisation surgery, hair replacement (head), vaginoplasty with or without penis, breast implants, oophorectomy (spelling?) etc.

How do we tell who has had which treatment- especially at early stages of say, hair removal? Vaginoplasty is not immediately obvious.

What about hormone treatment without surgery?

What about people who identify as women but have no dysphoria and no intention of changing their bodies (not even shaving their beard like Alex Drummond)?

Where do we draw the line?

Wherever that line is drawn, say vaginoplasty (no penis) and facial feminisation surgery - how do we justify excluding the other people claiming to be part of the same group but haven’t got around to having surgery yet?

I have yet to see any evidence that transwomen are in any more danger in the men’s toilets than other vulnerable male groups like teenagers (experiencing unbelievably high rates of violence) and small camp men? I have asked interested parties for that evidence but they only produced that survey that you linked to earlier and tbh that was 6 yrs ago and in the US.

Life is different in many ways in the UK (our men have traditionally loved a bit of recreational cross dressing - a large chunk of comedy in my childhood was based on men dressed as women and the students were always off on tarts and vicars night etc - men dressing up in stockings and suspenders- look at the dressing up for the Rocky Horrir show).

So British men have been used to female presenting (and females who can’t be bothered to wait) people using the men’s toilets.

Approx 200 murders of women happen every year, I think rapes are in the hundreds of thousands, yet there have been no murders of trans people in this country since 2018 (one transwoman murdered by a partner) and no reports of attacks on transwomen that I can see (plenty of reports of attacks by transwomen). Someone told me once that was because of media bias but my research over the last year tells me that this is not the case.

An interesting website for you to start with to work out where to start with deciding which transwomen should be allowed into single sex female spaces alongside undressed women and children is transcrime uk- it gives quite a range of people we would need to consider how to exclude.

Sorry abbie

I think trans women at any point of surgery should be able to use our toilets.

Ok.

What are you going to do with the females who will have no access to these toilets because they cannot use mixed sex spaces?

You seem to be happy to give away their rights and resources and access to any facilities so that these male born people may take their free choice from your described three available facilities for males.

Are you serious? I'm losing the will to live with this kind of male supremacist stuff, it's like those females who cannot make their lives revolve around males and suffer so that males can be happier and freer have no right to live.

cis-women

Please stop using this offensive phrase. It is banned on this forum.

@MichelleofzeResistance

Is the term cis-women really banned here?

You can find the information in the forum guidelines pinned at the top. It is indeed, as many women find it offensive.

@MichelleofzeResistance

Fair enough. I have to admit i hate it too. I was using it only for clarity in the post. But will try and remember to not use it again.

"The government’s position is also of the view that there needs to be proper provision of gender-specific toilets for both men and women, with a clear steer in building standards guidance."

That's great, but watch out for the slippery word "gender-specific". I pointed out that, as 'gender' is often now used to mean something other than 'sex', any legislation has to make it clear that these are single-SEX spaces.

This is really important. Single-sex facilities are already gender neutral, they are for males, or females of any or no gender.

If a female is on their period they will need a space that they can deal with that in, whatever their gender.

I do think additional mixed sex spaces would be useful though.

Bump/reminder
The extension deadline is tomorrow