Toilet provision for men and women: call for evidence - Government Consultation

[stumbledin]

Not sure of the closing date for this but more details at www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence

" ... The government wants to ensure dignity and respect for all. The Equality Act provides that sex, age, disability and gender reassignment are protected characteristics. This does not mean that gender-specific toilets should be replaced with gender-neutral toilets. But there should be balanced consideration of how the needs of all those with protected characteristics should be considered, based on the mix of the population and customer demand.

As part of this review, the merits of any best practice guidance on the provision of a gender-neutral toilet, as part of a wider balanced mix of gender-specific male and female toilets – where space allows – will be considered, alongside the interaction with the necessary provision of access to disabled toilets.

These considerations also include provision for older people, and for parents with very young children who need changing facilities. ... "

Hi Gardenbird and deltoids thanks for replying. Yes I could start a thread in chat but it would be my first ever mumsnet thread, I've no idea how to link to the government consultation, and I'm scared to death of buggering it up by saying the wrong thing lol. If anyone came back with questions I'd be absolutely lost. I know what I think but lack the in depth knowledge of regular FWR posters to explain it properly.

But I'm aware that this is just as much my responsibility as anyone else's so if no one else does it I will.

I have sent them an email with my opinion.

Will definitely respond. One thing that never fails to annoy me is a “gender-neutral” facility with urinals. If it’s got urinals, it’s for men (and needs to be matched by a cubicle-only facility designated for women)! Any gender-neutral options should be additional (unless space constraints require

Done it. The only technical thing I focused on was the difference between sex and gender, and that the Equality Act 2010 allows for single-SEX facilities where they're needed, eg toilets.

The introduction to the consultation sounds surprisingly aware of women's needs:
www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence#contents

It says "In recent years, there has been a trend towards the removal of well-established male-only/female-only spaces when premises are built or refurbished, and they have often been replaced with gender-neutral toilets. This places women at a significant disadvantage."
and
"The government’s position is also of the view that there needs to be proper provision of gender-specific toilets for both men and women, with a clear steer in building standards guidance."

That's great, but watch out for the slippery word "gender-specific". I pointed out that, as 'gender' is often now used to mean something other than 'sex', any legislation has to make it clear that these are single-SEX spaces.

EA2010 Schedule 3 Part 7 Paragraph 27 says
at www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/3
A person does not contravene section 29, so far as relating to sex discrimination, by providing a service only to persons of one sex if
(a)any of the conditions in sub-paragraphs (2) to (7) is satisfied, and
(b)the limited provision is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

Sub-paragraph 6 is our friend here. It says if the circumstances are such that a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex.

Thank you, Fair Play for Women. There's more at
fairplayforwomen.com/male-free-toilets-and-changing-rooms/

Phew. Can I have a cup of tea now?

With regard to the single-sex exemption, I pointed out that having been attacked in the past, I had reason to object to the presence of a male-born person when I was undressed and vulnerable in an enclosed space.

On the subject of design I said the traditional single-sex public loo rows of toilet cubicles plus communal washbasins was a good use of space. But where possible there should also be at least one private cubicle with washbasin (in case of bloody-mess incidents), as well as a larger one for people with disabilities. All within the single-sex area, so people with disabilities have the same chance to be among their own sex.

Outside the single-sex areas, at least one gender-neutral cubicle with washbasin should be provided for anyone who wants to use it. And a large cubicle would be useful for people with children.

Right. Now I'm having a

Have just started another thread in Chat to reach a wider audience, and included a link.

@OfInvention is there anything you would add to the Fair Play for Women info?

fairplayforwomen.com/male-free-toilets-and-changing-rooms/

(I can’t actually get to that page - FPFW site thinks I am a Robot and when I enter the correct codes in the captcha box it says they are incorrect.)

Done. Thanks for the link and the bump

Ps. I bloody hate that the cleaners are always male now. Why???

I queried it with a chain that runs service stations and just got a bland “We employ the best person for the job” response.

Using Service Station loos at night time when the toilets are virtually abandoned apart from a man with a mop can be very unsettling. In on occasion the “cleaner” seemed to be a random bloke slowly and interminably washing his hands at the sinks. Other staff assured me he was a Cleaner when I told them about it, which was even more worrying.

@3beesinmybonnet

Have just started another thread in Chat to reach a wider audience, and included a link.

great job - well done for your first thread :¬))

Thanks Gardenbird

Good idea 3bees could you post and link to this thread?

I'm doing my submission now, typing about public toilets on a Friday night, I'm so rock n' roll

A great points. Anyone got a basic technical email format I can send them as I'm too tired to think of what to write.

Not sure it's technical but I can share my top lines...

Current building regs
What we use toilets for, why it takes us longer, queues - Caroline Cruido Perez
The Butch Lesbian myth -Diva (letting lesbians down again)
Single sex exemptions puts the onus on women
Legislation and US bathroom bill (Biden Exec order)
Priority groups being created within EA
School mixed sex toilets and impact on girls (see transgender trend for media coverage examples)

DM for more.

As several PP have underlined the relevance of EA2010, here's a reminder that Ann Sinnott's Crowd Justice fundraiser for judicial review: "Official sources provide unlawful guidance on the 2010 Equality Act" closes tomorrow. This is focused on the EHRC, which continues to provide misleading advice and guidance, e.g. "If you are accessing a service provided for men-only or women-only, the organisation providing it should treat you according to your gender identity."

@OhHolyJesus

Not sure it's technical but I can share my top lines...

Current building regs
What we use toilets for, why it takes us longer, queues - Caroline Cruido Perez
The Butch Lesbian myth -Diva (letting lesbians down again)
Single sex exemptions puts the onus on women
Legislation and US bathroom bill (Biden Exec order)
Priority groups being created within EA
School mixed sex toilets and impact on girls (see transgender trend for media coverage examples)

DM for more.

Do you have the actual links please? Thank you!

@Falleninwiththewrongcrowd

As several PP have underlined the relevance of EA2010, here's a reminder that Ann Sinnott's Crowd Justice fundraiser for judicial review: "Official sources provide unlawful guidance on the 2010 Equality Act" closes tomorrow. This is focused on the EHRC, which continues to provide misleading advice and guidance, e.g. "If you are accessing a service provided for men-only or women-only, the organisation providing it should treat you according to your gender identity."

23 more days to go according to this screenshot

I think if we're demanding women only toilets, we need to demand safe toilets for trans people too. The statistics tell us that trans people just as vulnerable to abuse as cisgendered women, thus I feel it is our duty to protect them too. Additionally, for people who are neither male nor female, without gender neutral facilities they cannot enter either toilet without facing abuse. If that's the case, the toilet isn't even functioning as a toilet!
Of course, creating gender neutral toilets is not in opposition to gendered facilities and women-only spaces. But in my view we have to ensure that wherever toilets are available there is a gender neutral option, otherwise we leave a group of vulnerable people in danger.

The statistics tell us that trans people just as vulnerable to abuse as cisgendered women

Please provide a link to these statistics, thanks.

Good news! The Government's call for evidence on toilet provision for men and women has been been extended. The consultation now closes at 11.45pm on 26th February 2021.
If you haven't already sent in your views on the problems faced by women (inadequate number of toilets for women, so the inevitable queues; why women need privacy when dealing with menstruation, bladder weakness, etc.; the unwelcome trend to make women's toilets "gender-neutral"; etc.) please use this extra time to make your views known. Do you want your daughters and granddaughters to queue for the loo? If you don't, state your views to the Government before 26th February. Here is the official link:
www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence

@MaudTheInvincible

The statistics tell us that trans people just as vulnerable to abuse as cisgendered women

Please provide a link to these statistics, thanks.

Many sources are available, but here's one examples: www.transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/USTS-Full-Report-FINAL.PDF if you start on page 197.

I found the quotes on page 201 particularly chilling, and I think they resonate with our own experience.

That appears to be US data. Not UK, so how is it relevant to discussions around UK toilet provision?

How could anyone actually monitor this? Say a transwoman has undergone complete surgery or maybe she still has her penis but has breasts - both 'look' female - how would this be managed in terms of access to women-only toilets? Or are we as cis-women advocating they need to still use mens? Or is this where gender-neutral bathrooms come in?

The link you provided also appears to be a self-selected survey, can that really be called 'statistics'? Doubtful. Also, where are the corresponding data from women for the just as vulnerable comparison?

While statistical analysis isn't my area, I really don't think that survey provides any reliable or relevant evidence for your claim that The statistics tell us that trans people just as vulnerable to abuse as cisgendered women; so do you have something else?

@LiJo2015

How could anyone actually monitor this? Say a transwoman has undergone complete surgery or maybe she still has her penis but has breasts - both 'look' female - how would this be managed in terms of access to women-only toilets? Or are we as cis-women advocating they need to still use mens? Or is this where gender-neutral bathrooms come in?

I think trans women at any point of surgery should be able to use our toilets. My reasoning for this is that deciding who can use which toilet based on physical features they have runs into many problems with women who differ from the majority. In my view the point of the women's toilet is to protect people from men, and trans women need this same protection, they have the same oppressor as us. I was initially worried that trans women could pose a risk to us in our toilet, but I've come to realise that they have a similar experience of oppression and violence to what we've had, and so pose no more risk than any other woman. There also seems to be a lack of evidence of this proposed risk, e.g. link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z I feel strongly that we can't just leave these fellow women out in harms way.

I think the gender neural bathrooms come in for those people who are unable to use either the men's or the women's because they don't look appropriate for either, and thus face abuse in both.