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I don't want to talk to any of my friends anymore

(68 Posts)
WhatTiggersDoBest Mon 15-Jun-20 17:23:15

This is my first thread in Women's Rights but I've been on MN for about a year. I'm having a bit of a mental growth period I think.
I always used to consider myself pro-trans. We have more than ten friends who are all trans, including my husband's closest friend. The only people I ever saw talking about the issues surrounding trans people were the people themselves, and their staunch allies who are practiced at shutting down every rational debate.
In the past week, never mind that the whole world has two really important problems to deal with - black lives matter is waking up society to the concept of systemic injustices, which will benefit everyone who is systemically disempowered, and obviously we've got this dirty great pandemic going on too that's causing another, more insidious pandemic - domestic violence.
But guess what all my "friends" on Facebook are talking about? Oh, yeah, trans rights. Actively misrepresenting the other side and making GC feminists out to be evil bigots.
Because people who grew up with toxic male privilege are of course far more important than anyone or anything else and we all have to get on their bandwagon or suffer the consequences.
I have been especially lonely during lockdown as I have a young baby and had just undertaken a massive career change.
I have always found the term "cis" offensive because we are not isomers, but honestly I was happy to live and let live until the past week. I'm just so upset and disappointed that people I thought were intelligent, critical thinkers are all just full of groupthink. The nastiness I've seen aimed at JKR... it's like they didn't understand the theme of the books at all.
I don't want to talk to pretty much anyone I know anymore. People I went to uni with. People I worked with. People from schools.
I lived in women's refuges for 6 months at one point, when my mum fled my stepdad, and knowing the women who go there, and the reasons they are there, and what a state they (and we) arrived in, I just can't support trans women having access to refuges. They don't even get men in to repair things, or let the postman in with a parcel. You're not even allowed to give your real address if you live in one, not even to the doctor's or schools, you give a PO box address.
No. Trans women shouldn't be in these spaces. They need a third space where they can rant and rave by themselves without making natal women suffer.
But none of them are understanding this in their quest to get access to places they can't usually go. As far as I can tell, they just want what they perceive as "privilege" of going to those places, and any argument is twisted into mud-slinging very quickly.
But I don't know where to find new friends who support natal women but who aren't phobic of the LGB community.
I'm not sure what I'm asking really, I just had to get this off my chest. I don't want my baby raised in a world where dangerous experimental medication is handed out to nine-year-olds, and where schools have the audacity to tell my son he isn't a boy because he likes to play with some girly stuff, or to tell my daughter that the feeling of loneliness and "otherness" she's feeling is because she isn't a girl, rather than because she IS a girl and is growing up, and I don't want to be friends with people who support this nonsense.
Am I really so wrong for questioning all this stuff? It's so hard to try and unstick myself from the groupthink.
Sorry if I'm rambling, I think I just need a handhold and some sound advice, because I feel like I'm waking up from a mass delusion by myself, and so alone.

OP’s posts: |
CodenameVillanelle Mon 15-Jun-20 17:31:01

You're not wrong.
It can feel very lonely when you're starting to feel the rift between yourself and your friends over this issue. You need to find some online community. Lots of women are waking up to these issues and feeling the same as you at the moment. Two friends have reached out to me this week telling me about falling out with friends or feeling very alienated.

Winesalot Mon 15-Jun-20 17:31:38

Thank you for sharing your story. It must have been a very tough time for you and your mum. And it must be very stressful with those discussions taking place. Does your husband understand and support your choice? If not, it must feel very isolating.

Do you have any support?

ISaySteadyOn Mon 15-Jun-20 17:33:37

flowers It's hard.

Someone on a previous thread used the phrase 'radicalised by motherhood' and I think that, for some women, this is accurate. I was one of them and you may be too.

You don't want anybody hurt or discriminated against but being a woman is a tangible biological state of being. And the misogyny of suggesting that womanhood is a nebulous feeling in a male head has just hit you. You're not alone in reassessing your views.

FantaOra Mon 15-Jun-20 17:33:50

You are not alone, there's millions of people like you. It's a shame that the Filia conference was canceled, you could have met new people who are not so narrow minded.

Anyway you are here now, join in the fun.


PumbaasCucumbas Mon 15-Jun-20 17:33:57

flowers for you, it’s a bit like emperors clothes, you can’t unsee it once you do. It doesn’t stop you caring about trans people either.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 15-Jun-20 17:35:54

I feel you, sis. It's a rotten situation to be in, and it's going to get worse as public discussion of these issues finally happens. Do you have anyone at all who you can talk to irl?

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 15-Jun-20 17:37:01

In addition to Mumsnet, the two Gender Critical subreddits on Reddit are both places you can talk honestly about this stuff, though they're very America centric.

WhatTiggersDoBest Mon 15-Jun-20 17:42:01

Thank you so much for being so welcoming. My husband sees my point of view but also sees that of his best friend who he's known since 1996. He's had a really hard time from "activists" who are just posting crappy screenshots on his Facebook profile of things trans people said on Twitter or Tumblr, because his Facebook post of support for trans rights wasn't worded exactly perfectly and a bunch of people made a pile-on.

@PumbaasCucumbas yes it's definitely like Emperor's New Clothes. I'm genuinely scared of starting an argument with people though. I don't have the energy for it. I keep reading about "emotional load" when it comes to black lives matter and that basically sums it up.

OP’s posts: |
WhatTiggersDoBest Mon 15-Jun-20 17:47:39


I feel you, sis. It's a rotten situation to be in, and it's going to get worse as public discussion of these issues finally happens. Do you have anyone at all who you can talk to irl?

No. The only person who would understand was my dad (not the abusive stepdad), who died five years ago, and we had so many arguments about trans people because he would always insist on calling trans women men (he was also a big Germaine Greer fan) and I used to try and explain that they weren't a threat to women. I read about Karen White from something someone posted on here and I wish I could go back in time and tell him I understand now.

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TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 15-Jun-20 17:51:44

That sucks. Keep posting here and in other GC spaces, there are a lot of us who've said a firm no to drinking the kool-aid.

There's someone who I've been friends with for over a decade who I had to cut contact with over this. Only one person, but that was nasty enough, I can't even imagine how hard it would be not to have support irl. When I first realized that there were some troubling things that TRAs were saying I quietly reached out to women I knew online who were strong feminists, and found that a lot of them had the same misgivings I did.

DancingLady Mon 15-Jun-20 18:01:25

OP, I could have written your post. I think I've lost some friends over the past week for saying that sex is real, biology is part of being a woman, and trans women are trans women. Apparently controversial statements. I have no hatred of trans people. I believe they need full human rights and protections that any vulnerable group deserves. But not at the expense of another vulnerable group - women. And a lot of women I thought were smarter just can't get their heads around that. As people have said, once you see it you can't unsee it.

Stuffofawesome Mon 15-Jun-20 18:03:35

You are not alone. None of the Gc women I know are homophobic. None of them are transphobic either come to that. You don't need to take up the fight at the moment, maybe start by reading around the subject and get your thoughts together slowly. Lots of amazing articles that have been linked to in previous posts in feminist section here to wade through. Take a look at A woman's Place UK and FairPlay for Women as good places to go for info.

Susanna85 Mon 15-Jun-20 18:10:56

I hear you. And agree with you.
And care about trans women and trans men very much. But I also care for women and girls and won't sacrifice their safety and well-being for a TINY minority's belief.

Shedbuilder Mon 15-Jun-20 18:16:10

OP, I think the realisation that some of one's apparently wise and thoughtful friends, people who describe themselves as feminists and who you thought had integrity and were woman-centred are actually so easily duped is excruciatingly painful. I've lost several women who I'd considered my mainstay in life and there are too many others doing the 'be kind and shut up' number on me that I can never trust fully again.

Ereshkigalangcleg Mon 15-Jun-20 18:18:52

thanks it is really hard to lose friends over this. But it's even harder to be forced to accept something that you believe is wrong.

FantaOra Mon 15-Jun-20 18:22:06

I'm sure your step dad would have realised you would become more nuanced in your thinking as you got older. I know my dad did and he's gone now too, but I remember some of the interesting things we talked about and books we shared. He would have known that the things he said would resonate with you later in life because that's quite often how generational things work. I would be very proud to have a step dad who was a fan of the incredible Germaine Greer. She knows well how women struggle to shake off social conditioning.

FantaOra Mon 15-Jun-20 18:23:13

Sorry, dad not step dad. My mistake.

WhatTiggersDoBest Mon 15-Jun-20 18:27:14

@ISaySteadyOn yes "radicalised by motherhood" probably sums it up. I'm scared for any children who get pulled into this when it's not the right thing for them. I learned about "desisters" and "detrans" from JKR's letter and I looked up the terms yesterday, there's a subreddit with over 12k Redditors and the things they've gone through is heartbreaking.
@Stuffofawesome thanks that's reassuring. I looked at Fair Play for Women just now and I think it puts into words (and graphs) something that's been bothering me for a while, which is how profoundly unfair it is that trans women can compete against natal women in sports. I can't imagine how soul-destroying it must be to be told all through primary school "you can do it, girls can do sports too now" then get older and find out that's not true. I need to look up A Woman's Place as I've heard of it before but don't know anything about it.

OP’s posts: |
OhHolyJesus Mon 15-Jun-20 18:28:36

I don't either OP, that's why I'm here. I'm exhausted. I can't defend biology all day every day and I'm struggling to maintain the friendships I have for other reasons (no time).

The good news is my bestie reached the top of the mountain so to speak last week and we have been talking a lot about it since.

WhatTiggersDoBest Mon 15-Jun-20 18:29:57

God it's hard to talk about all this. The Kool-Aid is still in my system and it keeps telling me that I'm being really transphobic but at the same time I feel like my own identity and that of other women is being erased.

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mondaymusing Mon 15-Jun-20 18:33:41

Hello. My first post on the feminist boards too.
I also have fallen out with friends this week over this. We've agreed to disagree but I just can't look at them the same again to hear them shutting down any reasonable discussion. And the constant reposting of aggressive statements condemning anyone with a different opinion.
The break room at work was exactly the same.
It's agree with me or you're anti trans. Which I'm not.
I'm advocating for vulnerable women who everyone else seems to have forgotten or not care enough about.

Thelnebriati Mon 15-Jun-20 19:11:45

That feeling may be Fear, Obligation and Guilt - FOG. Its common to feel it when you are leaving a toxic or out of balance relationship. There's a blog called Out Of The Fog which you might find interesting, its written for people who are dealing with narcs but the advice is valid for other types of relationship as well.

Based on your description of how the friendship group works, another blog piece you might find interesting is The Dollhouse, because when you leave you risk being made the scapegoat;

HarryHarry Mon 15-Jun-20 19:28:06

I posted about this on another thread. I “came out” as GC on social media last week and quickly had to delete my account because of the pile-on from “friends” accusing me of transphobia even though I hadn’t said anything hateful. All I said was that I supported trans people but I didn’t agree with everything that was being done in their name. It showed me that it is not possible to have a calm, reasonable discussion with these people. The world really has gone fucking insane. I too am afraid for my children being taught this utter non-scientific gender bullshit.

20mum Mon 15-Jun-20 19:55:16

To the Filia rep. who posted above, why can't a meeting be online?
There has been Parliamentary meeting, voting and legislation online.
It is arguably elitist and disablist, at the least, to arrange what could be inclusive in such a format it excludes almost everyone.

Filia isn't the worst, though. Of all organisations to cancel a meeting, the climate change summit people threw a tantrum, because if they can't set a 'good' example by flying all over the planet to attend a conference in person, then they won't speak to anyone at all, so there.
Not intending to hijack the thread, but there's no way to contact filia

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