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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I don't want to talk to any of my friends anymore

67 replies

WhatTiggersDoBest · 15/06/2020 17:23

This is my first thread in Women's Rights but I've been on MN for about a year. I'm having a bit of a mental growth period I think.
I always used to consider myself pro-trans. We have more than ten friends who are all trans, including my husband's closest friend. The only people I ever saw talking about the issues surrounding trans people were the people themselves, and their staunch allies who are practiced at shutting down every rational debate.
In the past week, never mind that the whole world has two really important problems to deal with - black lives matter is waking up society to the concept of systemic injustices, which will benefit everyone who is systemically disempowered, and obviously we've got this dirty great pandemic going on too that's causing another, more insidious pandemic - domestic violence.
But guess what all my "friends" on Facebook are talking about? Oh, yeah, trans rights. Actively misrepresenting the other side and making GC feminists out to be evil bigots.
Because people who grew up with toxic male privilege are of course far more important than anyone or anything else and we all have to get on their bandwagon or suffer the consequences.
I have been especially lonely during lockdown as I have a young baby and had just undertaken a massive career change.
I have always found the term "cis" offensive because we are not isomers, but honestly I was happy to live and let live until the past week. I'm just so upset and disappointed that people I thought were intelligent, critical thinkers are all just full of groupthink. The nastiness I've seen aimed at JKR... it's like they didn't understand the theme of the books at all.
I don't want to talk to pretty much anyone I know anymore. People I went to uni with. People I worked with. People from schools.
I lived in women's refuges for 6 months at one point, when my mum fled my stepdad, and knowing the women who go there, and the reasons they are there, and what a state they (and we) arrived in, I just can't support trans women having access to refuges. They don't even get men in to repair things, or let the postman in with a parcel. You're not even allowed to give your real address if you live in one, not even to the doctor's or schools, you give a PO box address.
No. Trans women shouldn't be in these spaces. They need a third space where they can rant and rave by themselves without making natal women suffer.
But none of them are understanding this in their quest to get access to places they can't usually go. As far as I can tell, they just want what they perceive as "privilege" of going to those places, and any argument is twisted into mud-slinging very quickly.
But I don't know where to find new friends who support natal women but who aren't phobic of the LGB community.
I'm not sure what I'm asking really, I just had to get this off my chest. I don't want my baby raised in a world where dangerous experimental medication is handed out to nine-year-olds, and where schools have the audacity to tell my son he isn't a boy because he likes to play with some girly stuff, or to tell my daughter that the feeling of loneliness and "otherness" she's feeling is because she isn't a girl, rather than because she IS a girl and is growing up, and I don't want to be friends with people who support this nonsense.
Am I really so wrong for questioning all this stuff? It's so hard to try and unstick myself from the groupthink.
Sorry if I'm rambling, I think I just need a handhold and some sound advice, because I feel like I'm waking up from a mass delusion by myself, and so alone.

OP posts:
Manderleyagain · 15/06/2020 19:57

Hello, thanks for posting this. It's definitely worth looking up women's place UK and read what they say, watch the talks. This goes for anyone new to this. The other way to find stuff and people, is twitter, where you can be anon. But there is some nastiness too obviously.

If you look up "resisters UK" (they have a web site, twitter and I think Facebook) you can find out if there is a group near you. I'm involved locally (obvs not now in lock down) & they are just a bunch of feminist women who are worried about this all. Even if you don't make contact now it might help to know there are some other women locally.

OP do your trans friends act the way you describe - or is this mostly 'allies'?
I'm glad your husband understands where you are coming from.

bumpitybumpbump · 15/06/2020 21:10

It's so sad these days that people can't accept that other people have different opinions without taking everything so personally. I often have different views from my friends around politics for example and we usually have a good debate and end the discussion with a laugh and an agreement to see things differently. It doesn't affect our friendship because we aren't defined by any single topic. I'm in my 40s and I worry about this new thought extremism that the younger generations in particular seem to subscribe to. Seems we need a tolerance movement to intervene so the younger generations learn that being woke can become being intolerant and extremist. Which is never a good thing regardless of the ideology it's attached to.

Sorry you have lost friendships OP - it's horrid to feel silenced because you don't follow group thought. Can't remember who said it but I have always loved the quote that goes something like " if everyone in the room thinks the same, no one is thinking". Diversity is wonderful and of benefit in all forms - but different views must be allowed for everyone to benefit from it 💐

Zebracat · 15/06/2020 21:19

Thanks so much for posting. I am feeling really lonely right now. Mostly biting my tongue, but I’ve twice tried to explain my view and it hasn’t gone well. When these issues became pertinent to me, I was open minded. I have known a fair no of trans people , and probably would have wholeheartedly agreed with the need to be kind, although that always does have undertones of humour them, like when your 4 year old wants to be an astronaut, to me, so I might have wanted to do more, and have become a trans ally.
Then my child announced they were trans, and I had to educate myself fast.And I did. And I knew that I could never affirm or accept any chemical or surgical interventions, and that I did not believe this child was born in the wrong body. I certainly did not believe that it was certain they would not change their minds.The more I read, the fervid claims, the anger, the entitlement, the weaponisation of language. The threats of suicide and of violence to anyone who asked a question, the more convinced I became that this was a cult, enticing very vulnerable children to join.
Then someone I love told me that they were repeatedly raped as a young child by a man in woman’s clothing. Her relationships As an adult have sometimes become abusive. I thought of how it would be for her if she found herself in a refuge and there were trans women as fellow residents, or as staff members. I am not implying that all trans women are sexual predators. This rapist always presented in public as male. But any male would be unacceptable to my loved one in a refuge, and she would read a trans woman as male and as an absolute threat.
I have always been for debate, for respecting differences and for compromise. But children are being sacrificed on this altar, and so are women. And I can never agree .tha5 trans women are women.
Thank you to JKR, thank you to the regulars on this board, and thanks to you,op.

allthedamnvampires · 15/06/2020 21:21

My first post on this board too. Came along to say how much I agree with your post OP. I'm GC, and I'm getting bloody angry about this pandering to the trans lobby.

Shedbuilder · 15/06/2020 21:23

20mum, I imagine it's because it can cost serious money to do something like that online and also because one of the best things about any event like that is going and meeting other women and hearing their stories and exchanging information and making friendships.

Shedbuilder · 15/06/2020 21:25

Forgot to add that you can sign up and contact them here:

filia.org.uk/newsletter-signup

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 15/06/2020 23:34

Hello, new posters, and welcome. Flowers to those of you with difficult histories.

Flootered · 15/06/2020 23:39

Oh I'm right there with ya!

FantaOra · 15/06/2020 23:49

@20mum

Hi, I'm not actually a Filia rep, just an attendee. I do agree with you though, I think it would be great to have an online event. The have postponed the event to next year, likely to avoid losing money they have already spent on the venue.

A lot of academics are involved and they so seem to have a strong culture of travel as a perk and a freebie I've noticed which I always think is a bit profligate with students cash....

Not sure how to get hold of them, are there no contacts on the website? I am sure you will be listened to.

GCGayDad · 15/06/2020 23:54

I think I just need a handhold and some sound advice, because I feel like I'm waking up from a mass delusion by myself, and so alone.

You're not alone OP. But I know exactly how you feel. My partner respects my views but he doesn't understood them really. But after this week, with it being in the headlines and the awful way it's been reported and reacted to, I feel so isolated in my reaction to events and totally alienated from much of the gay community. I was with a couple of gay friends yesterday and they were taking about they've enjoyed going to Pride in past years. I know I never want to go anywhere near that, with how it's been tainted by Stonewall and the like.

Fortunately I have 2 or 3 gender critical friends, 2 female and 1 male, so I'm lucky I have someone in person to chat to.

Anyway, take care, you're not alone. Flowers

TehBewilderness · 16/06/2020 00:03

The best suggestion I can make to all of you is to read "Why Does He DO That" by Lundy Bancroft.
A huge number of transgender advocates are abusive men, and some women too. Politicians too.
Read the book, learn to recognize the tactics.
Psychological projection.
DARVO
Gaslighting
Forced teaming
Once you recognize what you are seeing you will rarely waste your time arguing with an abuser again. Except here on FWR where we do it for the benefit of the lurkers.
Read the Transwidows thread if you want to know what life is like for them.

WhatTiggersDoBest · 16/06/2020 00:13

@Manderleyagain thanks for that, I've taken a look and it turns out Resisters is UK and Ireland which is brill because I'm in NI which is often a grey area.
Sadly when I clicked on the link to find out more about the Ireland branch, it took me to Twitter, where it came up that the account has been suspended.
I'll try and contact them by email to see if they can put me in touch more directly.

@Zebracat that's awful, I'm so, so sorry for you and your child. I really wish there was a deprogramming thing available.

I don't want to talk to any of my friends anymore
OP posts:
FantaOra · 16/06/2020 00:23

There was a call out for irish feminists trying link up here just a few days ago, if you scroll down through the threads you will likely find it. They all say it's hard to be out there so do try to find them....

Stealhsquirrelnutkin · 16/06/2020 00:27

If you live in an area that already has a Resisters United group you could contact them. Or there might be other women in your area who also want a group, and the central Resisters will put you in touch with each other. resistersunited.org

For people who 'aren't phobic of the LGB community' you should check out lgballiance.org.uk As a lesbian I am vastly relieved that there is now an organisation that protects my rights. After Stonewall decreed that, according to their definition, 'homosexual' is now considered 'a more medical term used to describe someone who has a romantic and/or sexual orientation towards someone of the same gender' left me feeling betrayed.

I heartily recommend watching every video on Magdalen Berns YouTube channel just because she has such a wonderful way with words and she always makes me feel better when I'm depressed by the awful things being done to women and children by transgenderists. www.youtube.com/channel/UCvTTakI97sQ4SkMnsH8r0qQ/videos?view=0&sort=da&flow=grid

Stealhsquirrelnutkin · 16/06/2020 00:31

Oops, sorry, I wandered off half way through writing that, and came back later to post it and find that you'd already heard about resisters and were hoping to get in touch with the local group.

I think you do make the first contact via [email protected] and then they give you an e-mail for the local group if there is one, or ask if you fancy starting one if there isn't one yet.

FreddoFrogAddict · 16/06/2020 00:35

I understand your dilemma. I had a fall-out with my 23 yr old daughter last week when I told her I supported JKR. She went mad - JKR is 'vile' and 'transwomen are women' hissed at me through gritted teeth before she stormed off. It's like a cult - totally faith based with no grounding in reality or science. And they will NEVER debate! I think they are so quick to anger for precisely that reason - they have no argument and they know it.

I can't look at my daughter the same way now. She's not the person I thought she was. And she's really sporty too, so you'd think she'd at least see that transwomen have a massive advantage over women in sports.

Many young women don't appreciate how hard won women's rights are in this country, and can't understand what life was like for women even relatively recently. It was only in 1991 that rape within marriage was made illegal! Men have never given us anything. Any rights we have are due to the courageous women who campaigned so hard for so long. Sad to think that this generation could be the one to give those rights away.

WhatTiggersDoBest · 16/06/2020 01:07

[quote FantaOra]www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3938280-Threats-from-transactivists-in-Ireland?pg=5[/quote]
Thanks I'm already on that thread but it was good to go look at the updates as it's grown a bit since I last looked. I've offered my assistance over there to anyone needing work/rental references as a result of TRA bullying, because are they FUCK going to ruin our lives.

OP posts:
Gotoworkdontgotowork · 16/06/2020 01:12

I just can't support trans women having access to refuges.
Trans women shouldn't be in these spaces. They need a third space where they can rant and rave by themselves without making natal women suffer.

Because that’s what abused trans women do is it? Rant and rave?

I always used to consider myself pro-trans.

I’m not sure pro-trans means what you think it does.

sessell · 16/06/2020 01:15

This week has been a watershed for many of us. I came out too on FB. Mixed response. I just find I've lost interest and respect for anyone who has a cult like response to this. So I think I've lost friends too, but it's my choice, I feel like I've left them behind. I really can't be bothered making an effort with those people and I don't feel sad about it. I feel positive and energised by being bold and my brain feels freed and sharper now that it's not tied down in cognitive dissonance.

sessell · 16/06/2020 01:25

@freddo I sympathize. My 21 year old daughter is similar. Too much tumbler! Like OP said about her dad, in time they will catch up. I love my daughter very much so she's the one person I'll give a pass to on this. We'll just avoid the subject as much as possible, as she really can't deal with it rationally. We do talk about women's issues and feminism apart from this, so there's much to build on. In many ways it's easier to understand what happened to their generation. It's older women, 40+ who've drunk the koolaid I can't understand.

FantaOra · 16/06/2020 01:30

because are they FUCK going to ruin our lives.
Flowers

ExhaustedFlamingo · 16/06/2020 01:43

I am finding this so, so hard. My views fall down somewhere in the middle of everything but I have no solutions, just moral questions and dilemmas.

It goes without saying that trans folk are vulnerable, and need protection. Many have been on a distressing life journey and face continued challenges. Discrimination against trans folk is not OK.

At the same time, I am a woman and I don't wish to be spoken over. It's taken a long, long time for our voice to be heard and it's already being shoved aside. And that's before we've even achieved equality. JKR summed up a lot of what I believe. I don't wish to be a person who menstruates. I am a woman and its core to my identity. I find it insulting that someone who just feels mentally like a woman but has a penis is apparently also a woman, just like me. I can't get behind that. Do our views really matter so little? I shouldn't be surprised really. Men always get to talk over us and lecture women about what they believe we should think and feel.

If a trans woman has surgery, I'm fine with her entering a single sex space. She will have boobs, a constructed vagina and no penis. I don't mind her being referred to as a woman, without the "trans" prefix.

I'm not OK with a trans woman entering female sports as she will have an unfair advantage from previous testosterone production/muscle growth.

I'm not OK with a pre-op trans woman entering a single sex space. They're not "a woman" - they still have a penis. They're a trans woman. I will support you, I will fight discrimination against you - but I won't share a single sex space with you.

And then I question myself.......

What if one of my children were trans? What if my son identified as a trans woman? Forcing him to use male facilities would put him at huge risk of attack from predatory or transphobic males. Even though I would know he's not a danger, it's unfair to allow him into a female only space. It leaves him horribly isolated.

I think it's right to challenge my own views. Putting one of my children hypothetically in that situation is, I find, quite a useful way of thinking about how the other side might feel. The trouble is, it just creates more questions than answers.

Is the solution to create a third area for pre-op trans folk - or does this leave them further marginalised and not truly part of either gender? Or maybe it's a third area for all those who don't identify with a gender - such as non-binary too? Non-binary support groups say non-binary folk should be able to use whichever bathroom they want - male or female - so maybe they do fit better into a third area too along with pre-op trans?

And as I'm letting it all out, I don't get non-binary either. I've known loads of women over the years who hated all things feminine with a raging passion and firmly rejected all stereotypical expression of their gender - but they also weren't "masculine" nor did they feel like men. Think androgynous. They are women but with an identity in direct contrast to the norms of gender expression - but weren't labelled as non-binary and were fine. They were just women, their biological sex, which they chose to express in their own personal way. I don't understand why we need a non-binary label. I've really, really tried to understand but it just seems to complicate matters without helping. To be fair, probably not aided by famous non-binary people like Sam Smith who are utterly attention-seeking and the perpetual victim.

I feel like the world's biggest prick writing all of this. Like I'm a terrible, bigoted right-wing person - and I'm really, really not. My politics are firmly to the left. Nor did I vote for Brexit. People who know me would be shocked this is what I think.

With my horrible views I feel like a cuckoo in the nest.

I cannot imagine how terrible it must feel to believe that you are in the wrong body. To be so utterly certain of that fact that you're willing to ultimately undergo radical surgery to amputate your penis or chop off your breasts. I absolutely want to be kind and inclusive.

I want a discussion where people don't fling hatred just because you have reservations about a person with a penis being in a woman's refuge.

Maybe there's things we don't know yet. Twitter had a really interesting thread from a marine biologist which talked about buried sex markers which was a fascinating read. Maybe as science progresses we'll learn more about a biological reason for all of this. Who knows?

I think.....that at least for now, it's right to align gender with your sex - and if you have female genitals (either birth or constructed) you can use "woman". If not, then it's a trans identity.

I feel like the worst person even admitting this is all what I think. And I'm open to someone convincing me why I'm wrong but I've not heard anything persuasive so far.

WhatTiggersDoBest · 16/06/2020 01:45

Not sure who posted about the Dollhouse article as I've scrolled up and down the updates and can't find the post, but that was a great one, I'm going to look into her books.

@Stealhsquirrelnutkin thanks I didn't see the LGB alliance one before, I'm on their site now. Sounds right up my street as I'm a "B" and I take offence to people telling me that means I should actually call myself "pansexual". I'm actually not attracted to cooking implements.

@FreddoFrogAddict Aww that's such a shame. The irony being what's "woke" has changed so rapidly that "Transwomen are women" as a slogan is apparently, according to some shyte shared by one of my "friends", now offensive to trans people. medium.com/@aspindler91/why-im-retiring-the-phrase-trans-women-are-women-a7842ef2ecd7

OP posts:
WhatTiggersDoBest · 16/06/2020 01:55

@ExhaustedFlamingo it's a complete minefield isn't it?

@sessell oh good for you! I've deleted two people so far and am on the fence about a bunch of others but I'm sick of being made to feel like shit for expressing my own thoughts and feelings.

@ScrimpshawTheSecond Thank you! I'm glad to (finally) be here even if I was very late to the GC feminism table.

OP posts: