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Oh look, it's those guidelines making no sense whatsoever again!

(692 Posts)

MNHQ have commented on this thread.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 17:09:48

So, I got an email about a comment in which I said that I wanted to know why genderists keep comparing trans identified males to black women and lesbians being deleted. I think this is absolutely barmy, and have said so to HQ. I'm also baffled as to how this breaks any guidelines and thought perhaps it was time for us as a group to revisit the guidelines and explain once more to MNHQ why they're not working.

What's actually happening here is the the obsessive trans activists who monitor this site are attempting to pick off posters one by one. We lost Orchid last week, and she was just the most recent of many. I'm not sure in MNHQ realize that's happening and welcome it or if it's somehow escaped their notice, but it's a pretty messed up thing for them to be allowing to happen to their users, in my opinion. Are they going to allow this to continue until the only commenters left in this forum are the TRAs who want the entire site shut down?

I know the people who despise the women here would very much like this to all happen under the radar, and that's exactly why I'm not allowing it to play out that way.

koshkat Mon 04-Nov-19 18:00:52

It is ludicrous, sad and frustrating that women have to dance to the tune of controlling men even when on a forum for women and specifically about feminism. In 20fucking19.

I have been banned from twitter countless times and no longer go back, also from the teaching forum I used to frequent for even daring to mention that there may be something dubious about 'trans kids' and I expect that if MN are getting heavy on the modding I shall be banned from here soon too.


TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 18:01:40

WTF, StopThePlanet? So now we're not allowed to talk about children being exploited even if those children are not trans and the conversation we're trying to have has nothing to do with trans people? On a parenting site?

Why? Let's add that to the list of things that @MNHQ really ought to explain.

koshkat Mon 04-Nov-19 18:03:46

How is it not okay on FWR of all places to be concerned about a female child's inability to consent to lingering exposure of her body?

Because you assumed her gender perhaps? That is far more important than the fact that she was exploited in such a blatant and horrible way. hmm

koshkat Mon 04-Nov-19 18:04:14

MN need to explain.

BeMoreMagdalen Mon 04-Nov-19 18:06:25

But 'trans' is an 'identity'. confused

Trans people use it as an umbrella term for a whole myriad of permutations. I have read and heard so many trans people introduce themselves with "I identify as trans and these are my pronouns."

Seriously, this one is about 'male' and they bloody know it. This is MNHQ saying 'you can't refer to a group of people by their sex, even though it is the only thing relevant to why you are even discussing them as feminists, because... well, we're not sure really, but it's all a bit uncivil and unseemly.'

happydappy2 Mon 04-Nov-19 18:06:51

Back around 17th June I started a thread asking MNHQ if we could use the term 'trans identified male', rather than transwomen, as the term transwoman IS ran to over 2000 posts and certain posters were VERY pissed off. Funnily enough the disgruntled ones were able to post throughout the night, almost like they were in a different time zone.....

ErrolTheDragon Mon 04-Nov-19 18:08:15

I think I saw your thread, planets. Iirc I think you fell foul of the late night troll hunters who unfortunately all too often correctly identify threads about kids which have very bad motivations. If they'd bothered to read the synopsis of the film on wiki they'd have perhaps realised yours was nothing like that (sounded like a bloody awful film tbh)

Qcng Mon 04-Nov-19 18:09:21

"Trans identified male" has been a banned term for ages.

Deletions always go up after high profile events such as after Spartacus, Ocado, the Flora boycott, this new double-down is probably because the M&S threads are getting a lot of attention.

The corporations (M&S etc) start ringing MNHQ with "concerns" WRT their association and advertising with MN. MN have to double down on feminist posts or lose advertising revenue.
It's a constant battle for them.

At least they allow the debate at all, unlike Twitter / Facebook / everywhere else, who basically ban gender critical thinking completely.

BeMoreMagdalen Mon 04-Nov-19 18:11:51

And threads started from pure Goady Fuckery get left up with polite notices from Mods to be nice to the GF, or even to stay 'on topic' when the topic is goading the fucking shit out of the women here. It's like my mother has come back from the dead and is running the MN mod team.

StopThePlanet Mon 04-Nov-19 18:13:06


I still feel creeped out by the scene. I wish... I really really really wish we could discuss it openly here. There are few things I feel that only the women of FWR can help me sort and I need help on this one (to parse it, to perhaps be righted like possibly my personal experiences are clouding my perspective? Or am I and DH right on in our disturbed disgust?).

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 18:14:07

Twitter seems to be backing down a bit actually, I've noticed that nobody is getting hit with the banhammer for calling Yaniv a man any more, and there are pointing out reality tweets in response to pretty much every recent attempt at propaganda. Chase Strangio got roundly mocked for the recent "I can't pay my bills because the envelope deadnames me" tweet.

ErrolTheDragon Mon 04-Nov-19 18:14:22

At least they allow the debate at all, unlike Twitter / Facebook / everywhere else, who basically ban gender critical thinking completely.

Yes - at least on MN we have this down in writing:
We don’t wish to prevent anyone from asserting as part of their gender critical position that transwomen are born Male

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 18:16:52

But they do in fact prevent us from asserting just that. That's the problem, and the reason this thread exists.

BeMoreMagdalen Mon 04-Nov-19 18:17:05

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

StopThePlanet Mon 04-Nov-19 18:17:09

Either way, watching our sisters fall like dragonflies to avoid male approach is really fucking disheartening (whether volunteered fall or forced).

ErrolTheDragon Mon 04-Nov-19 18:18:58

Planets - I'd have thought it would be possible to discuss that film, if you need to, but be very careful with the title and OP to avoid the misunderstanding I've deduced happened. I've not seen it, and have no intention of doing so, it might be good to warn people off it.

Ereshkigal Mon 04-Nov-19 18:20:04

Answer came there none.

I know. I've compromised with MTF trans person/people because it doesn't say woman or female in full. It's not ideal but it is an official term that most people generally understand.

ErrolTheDragon Mon 04-Nov-19 18:21:52

* That isn't my position, though. They are born and remain male.*

Well, yes, and afaik we're also allowed to state simple biological truth that mammals can't change sex.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 18:24:00

Why should Stop have to walk on eggshells like that though, just because this is the feminist board? Why is everyone else allowed to basically say what they like but the feminists have to be very very careful and remember to watch your tone young lady? This should be the space where women speak most freely.

BeMoreMagdalen Mon 04-Nov-19 18:27:30

Errol, when I am feeling sanguine, I take that pragmatic line, yes. But today I am having one of my intemperate 'why are we grateful for scraps while being coercively controlled?' moments. It will pass. I may be banned before it does, but, you know, genie out of the bottle now, and actually, MN isn't the only place we can discuss this now, thanks to some extremely brave lesbians breaking away from Stonewall, and some tenacious feminists pressing damned hard against closed doors until they open, the conversation is breaking out all over.
In light of that, the 'guidelines' begin to look much less benign, if they ever did.

zebrasdontwearbras Mon 04-Nov-19 18:27:57

Well M&S won't like what they read here, will they? But kow-towing to TRAs won't improve their profits - which I understand are in a bit of trouble at the moment.

I've noticed that Justine comes out with very brave statements in the press - about agreeing with freedom of speech, and the right of parents to discuss concerns about giving young children puberty blockers etc etc - but this bravery of Justine isn't actually translated into the moderation decisions. Some of the mod decisions have been very over-zealous recently - Orchid's being a particular example.

HQ's decision to let that thread stand - with a child - well, a minor certainly - a 16yr old posting on here pretending to be their parent - would not be allowed in any other circumstances on this forum. It is literally trolling - pretending to be someone you are not is against the guidelines as far as I knew.

Ridiculous that a) those threads both remain, and b) that orchid's banning was upheld.

TheProdigalKittensReturn Mon 04-Nov-19 18:29:38

I'm still a bit confused as to who M&S think is going to buy anything other than their food if they drive all the mums away.

Carriemac Mon 04-Nov-19 18:31:38

Dear MNHQ,

Please remember that only women give birth - and that 'Mums' specifically refers to women.

Whilst the site has grown to include all sorts of other things, it would be a massive own goal to alienate your core readership - which is women.

An adult human female.

testing987654321 Mon 04-Nov-19 18:31:48

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly Mon 04-Nov-19 18:32:07

They also need to start explaining precisely what they're objecting to in comments they delete rather than a waffly "this breaks guidelines" with no explanation as to why

we can but dream...

I've been asking MNHQ to explain a recent deletion of mine They've stopped replying to my emails (interesting for a site that sets such store by civility in its users) so I guess I'll never know exactly what the problem is.

I have a creeping suspicion that it's because they don't know what the problem with the post was either. it's just that someone said jump and they said 'how high?'

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