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Oh look, it's those guidelines making no sense whatsoever again!

6 replies

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 04/11/2019 17:09

So, I got an email about a comment in which I said that I wanted to know why genderists keep comparing trans identified males to black women and lesbians being deleted. I think this is absolutely barmy, and have said so to HQ. I'm also baffled as to how this breaks any guidelines and thought perhaps it was time for us as a group to revisit the guidelines and explain once more to MNHQ why they're not working.

What's actually happening here is the the obsessive trans activists who monitor this site are attempting to pick off posters one by one. We lost Orchid last week, and she was just the most recent of many. I'm not sure in MNHQ realize that's happening and welcome it or if it's somehow escaped their notice, but it's a pretty messed up thing for them to be allowing to happen to their users, in my opinion. Are they going to allow this to continue until the only commenters left in this forum are the TRAs who want the entire site shut down?

I know the people who despise the women here would very much like this to all happen under the radar, and that's exactly why I'm not allowing it to play out that way.

HopeMumsnet · 05/11/2019 16:52

Hi all,
We're sorry for the delay in responding to the various queries that have come up on this thread but rest assured we are reading and having a think and preparing a response.
If you could all bear with us a bit longer, we'd be really grateful.

MichaelMumsnet · 08/11/2019 10:42

Hi all. We've read the whole thread and and are continuing to discuss the many questions raised. As the topic concerns the Talk guidelines and much of our moderation approach, it's not something that can be resolved quickly. Please bear with us for a while longer.

JustineMumsnet · 12/11/2019 11:53

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the points made and questions raised. We’ll try to answer some of the main ones.

It's always worth repeating that discussions where there are polarised views and feelings are running high are always particularly difficult to moderate. And we try very hard to treat everyone fairly, which is why we have the three strikes system. We're always happy to explain our thinking and look again at decisions.

On the subject of your original post Prodigal; yes, the reason for your last deletion was the use of the phrase 'TIM', nothing more. It’s mentioned in our guidelines on moderating threads about trans issues, and there's more discussion of it on this thread. Essentially, while we understand that not everyone will agree, we do regard it as an inflammatory term which is avoidable and as such, will usually delete it.

Regarding the phrase, 'peak trans': Again, while we will always look at context, it is a phrase that isn't likely to encourage civil debate, so we do sometimes delete it.

The idea of civil and constructive debate is at the heart of our moderation on this issue. We're trying hard to maintain a space for these important discussions, and a vital part of that is ensuring that all voices and opinions are welcome.

We know that pejorative words are often thrown at gender critical feminists on social media, but two wrongs don’t make a right, and on Mumsnet we think that by encouraging civil debate we can do better than this type of name calling, and we certainly don’t tolerate it here.

We will always delete posts that include negative generalisations about the entire trans community when they’re reported or when we spot them. This just isn’t something we can tolerate. There’s a very big difference between making thoughtful arguments (TalkingInTheDark’s post is an example of this) and posting pejorative generalisations about trans people. Posters who simply believe that trans people are weird, or shouldn’t be allowed to express their trans identity, just aren’t welcome on Mumsnet.

While many sites have not been able to continue to host this debate, thus far we have, despite fairly significant cost in terms of time and money. We’ve done so because users have, in fact, largely been able to discuss feminism and transgender issues without breaking our guidelines. We very much believe it is possible to make pretty much all the points that you have raised - both in this thread and across the boards - without falling foul of our guidelines and the three strike system.

On the issue of reporting, please be assured that the person reporting is not at the forefront of our minds when moderating. We simply look at the post in context and apply our guidelines to decide whether or not it warrants deletion.

With regards to quoted posts that are deleted, no, we wouldn't usually send strikes for those. We add to the deletion message if quoting was the reason for a post being removed.

And with the concerns about new posters 'stealing names', do always drop us a line about that as it occurs, we’ll be happy to take a look.

Sadly we are finding it impossible resource-wise to send an email about every deletion we make on the boards, so we can’t promise to do that but if we're issuing a strike we will always get in touch. I also want to stress that there is no difference in weekend moderation - our whole team has many years experience in moderating online communities and works flexibly across weekdays and week-ends.

I was genuinely saddened to read the comments accusing our moderators of coercive control - nothing could be further from the truth. It’s a challenging topic to moderate and as mentioned, it's not easy for us to host and be at the centre of this debate and legal and commercial fall out that comes along with it. But we believe that Mumsnet absolutely should provide a place to discuss an issue that is an important one for so many women and parents. Thanks to all those who have expressed support and cooperation in following our guidelines in order to help us to continue to host this conversation.

YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet · 12/11/2019 15:55

Hi everyone - we're reading all replies on here - bear with us as we go through them.

Wrt strike mails - we always mail users when they get a strike - it may be the case that not all users are checking their Mumsnet emails though. If you think we’ve made a mistake and not mailed you, let us know as we can check this out.

Wrt referring to the sex of a person - when someone’s biological sex is inherent to the discussion and part of a reasoned debate, we’re unlikely to delete terms that refer to it - but it should be civil and not intended to belittle.

We don’t allow vexatious reporting and can spot it pretty quickly. Our guidelines make it clear that anyone who repeatedly reports similar types of posts that aren’t worthy of deletion will be suspended.

Wrt posters who have been suspended - we can't discuss what's happening with individual MNers, we're afraid.

Is it not possible to send at least an automated message if a post is deleted? - this is something we'll certainly consider.

Rules that can't be followed by posters that want to follow the rules need to be looked at - We will of course give consideration to this - we really don’t wish to be punitive and will look at each case individually.

YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet · 12/11/2019 16:57

Hello @TheChampagneGalop - mails from the Community team are separate from subscription mails like the weekly Talk Round Up - you don't need to be signed up to those in order to receive individual mails from us. We'll look into our previous correspondence with you now but do drop us a line at [email protected] anytime.

YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet · 12/11/2019 17:27

@HandsOffMyRights - we'll look into that for you too.

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