FTM transition - can I just rant/discuss?!

[shehimthey]

I'm just putting this out there because I have been down a rabbit hole these past few months, trying to get my head round this whole issue. I'm totally with the argument that trans rights should be supported but not at the expense of women's rights. The arguments in the main seem to centre around trans rights seemingly being exploited by men to further oppress women (and I don't mean all trans MTF or TIMs but the TRAs)

However I really want to talk about the young women who are transitioning and how totally seductive the idea must seem. I have seen so many Youtube videos of lovely young women going through Transition. The whole, '1st day of T' cult and the rapidly lowering voice, the appearance of hair, the changing jaw line etc. Honestly, I am jaw on the floor at some of the 'young boys' that have appeared out of this process. I am almost convinced that it might be a good idea. The lovely Mums that suddenly have a handsome son instead of a lesbian daughter. I can really see how as a parent you could be convinced. And then I hear someone like Alex Bertie say that they're not interested in 'bottom surgery' and then realise that you have a female person, passing as an utterly charming lad, but with a vagina. And there's loads of them on Youtube (my most recent watch was Skylarkeleven) and most of them look so happy 'being men' but most of them don't go for the 'bottom surgery'. So they're handsome, passing 'men', usually having adopted a boisterous, tattooed, bicep flashing, laddish personality, coming across to all their Youtube fans as success stories but having to deal with the fact that they have a vagina - young women with facial hair, mastectomies and deep voices. And infertile.

I do'n't know where I'm really going with this other than to say that in some ways it must be 'easier' for a lot of young women to 'become men' because the results of taking T are so obvious and pretty convincing. And of course the appeal is immense. No longer do you have the status of 'woman' and all the shit that that entails - bye bye oppression (if you pass and most seem to) I weep at the lovely lesbian girls that are transitioning themselves into transmen but I can't say as I blame them. And I can't say that I blame any parent that has a suicide threatening teenage girl who convinces them that by transitioning they will be 'happy',

So I guess this post is about acknowledging this and acknowledging the parents who have to deal with their daughters going through this and maybe bringing it back to the damage that is happening to women from this angle. The emphasis seems to be on the MTF and all the issues that brings up,

I know it goes without saying that most people on the Feminist Boards are acutely aware of this aspect. I'm just wondering where this is going to go. I almost commented last night on the site of non-binary, Jakeftmagic (Alex Bertie's 'partner') that I lamented the loss of his beautiful singing voice from his 'lesbian' videos of 2014 to the non-binary, T-taking, be-bearded singing voice he demonstrates now but how cruel would that have been?

I was pissed off last night watching the Miriam Margoyles programme when she was talking to a fantastic black female sheriff in America's deep south. They filmed an LGTBT event and who were suddenly sitting centre stage and getting all the focus? The "T" element again. Suddenly the story of a powerful black woman, rising up and achieving was delegated to trans people complaining about the prejudice they experience.

As I said, I'm not sure what I want out of posting this other than to chat on the Feminist Board. Thanks for listening if you've made it his far!

[UpstartCrow]

Radical feminists want to create a society thats fit for people, so this is absolutely the right place to post about women permanently damaging themselves to fit it.

[GretchenFranklin]

We don't hear enough about these young transmen imo.

And I do also worry about lesbians if they feel like becoming men - 'men' - will make their lives better but losing so much of themselves in the process.

[BarrackerBarmer]

Definitely the right place to post. Yes, the appeal of trying to identify out of female is obvious, and I do think its easier for women to pass as men than vice versa.
However.
The lifetime medical dependence.
The loss of fertility.
The struggle to find a sexual partner.
The loss of sexual function and horrific scars caused by surgery.
And ultimately, the knowledge that you have rejected your actual self for a lifetime of façade.

For all the waffle about being my authentic self etc, the reverse is true. To transition is to reject the very core of who you are and to assume an identity that is fake, built on crumbling foundations. I think very few people can sustain a lifetime of that façade, and I imagine enormous issues are being stored up for the future when those birds come home to roost.

Most of all, the dialogue around gender is growing, and the ideas can't be suppressed. At some point, rational people cannot help but accept that gender is not a reality, just a belief system, an illogical myth. It must be a dreadful thing to realise this too late.

[MarSeeAh]

I read this today on the Fair Play for Women website.

fairplayforwomen.com/gra-reform/transgender-law-concerns-gra#s-d-arai

This is from a speech by Stephanie Davies-Arai on the impact on children and adolescents.

She ends by saying this:

... I am also contacted by young people themselves and I will end by quoting the most distressing message I received, from a young woman who asked simply this:

“Would you know how to get my body back? Would you know if anyone’s yet sued their doctor?”

[PullTheBricksDown]

Anything that shines more light on the experience of young people who identify as trans men is welcome. From what I've read, those are the numbers rising most rapidly, yet the people in the news over and over are trans women.

[ladyballs]

My teenage niece intends to transition. It breaks my heart.

[MarSeeAh]

How old is your niece, ladyballs?

It is heartbreaking.

[cromeyellow0]

I'd be a bit skeptical about claims to pass. Video is easier, because you can't judge size. Real-life is different.

In just two weeks, Cari identified 200 detransitioners (most former TIFs):
guideonragingstars.tumblr.com/post/149877706175/female-detransition-and-reidentification-survey

My impression (on little evidence admittedly) is that TIFs usually partner with lesbian women, and not with straight women or gay men.

[instantwhipped]

I have someone in my family who is a transman and his partner is a man. They look like a gay couple. Surgery is imminent and I feel a bit sad.

[bombadino]

I too have someone in my family who is a being a transman and has a husband. They have a 5 year old girl. Surgery and T have happened, spots, moustache, dudebro presentation. This is a public forum, so I'm not sure how to discuss this but its eating me up. I'm so sad that this seemed like a good solution to her, sad and furious.

[cromeyellow0]

May I ask, instantwhipped and bombadino*, do they pass as male?

[bombadino]

Not really. Like they are pretending. Androgynous with a tache. Tons of selfies chosen for most James Dean aspect

[cromeyellow0]

That's sad. Thanks for info. Transgenderism seems to take people who are uncomfortable with their body/gender/image and then, paradoxically, make this the central focus of their life.

[AngryAttackKittens]

My fear is that these young women are going to crash and burn as they get older. Youth is a time where androgyny tends to flourish anyway (or it did until recently), and a lot of the adult job/marriage/kids/mortgage stuff hasn't kicked in yet for this generation of trans men. So they're happy and optimistic and getting a lot of social support from their peers. But what about when they're 40 and a lot of that has faded away, and the medical impact of all the testosterone they're taking makes itself known? Beards and deeper voices are one thing, but when it's cancer and wrestling with whether or not you want children and if you can still have them and what that means both socially and medically? I worry they're going to crash hard.

[instantwhipped]

crome yes they look like 2 young men - both 20, similar dress sense. It's a bit of a thing where they are (at uni) I think but the TRA side of it is not apparent. It's more about fitting in, weirdly. That's how it seemed to me anyway.

[blackdoggotmytongue]

I know a couple of young transmen. They don’t pass. They are tiny.

I find it unutterably sad that society has boxed gender so tightly that young girls feel they don’t have the freedom to be who they are without taking hormones and trying to deny their sex.

[instantwhipped]

It is, and I'm not sure why it's happening as they all seem very enlightened.

I didn't personally find myself thinking there was anything giveaways. I'm a 'terf' and they both know it.I winced internally a couple of times but we were all smart enough to avoid certain subjects, and to get on really well

[bombadino]

I just can't call her he. She has thickened up seems to accept it more than being a heavier woman. I understand that being a strong 30 year old woman doesn't fit into the narrow confines of desirable and maybe it was just unbearable, un-navigable for her. It is all about her and how she looks now, as you say Chrome.

I am so scared for her. You're right AttackKittens, she's gone from 30 year old woman back to androgynous 22 year old man. I'm hoping her husband will be able to stay around and continue to be there for her when serious health and mental health consequences arrive.

Research outside of the rahrah transworld doesn't seem to happen, like the serious mechanical effects of a hysterectomy.

I so hope she will detransition before it comes to that.
I was very relieved to see the video of young gender critical presenting as masculine women on the Vancouver march.

[cromeyellow0]

Ah thanks instantwhipped.
blackdog it's not just "society" in abstract, there are particular social groups pushing this hard: LBTQ organisations in school, gender studies in university.

I posted what to me is a very clear example of LBGTQ organization converting a lesbian into a transman:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3146166-Transactivism-and-the-lesbian-community?pg=3&messages=25

Here's another showing university:
"It wasn’t until I was 21 and finishing my degree at the University of Kent that I discovered the concept of being trans. I came across the actress Ruby Rose, who is gender fluid, on YouTube and that led me to videos of trans people, especially men, which I couldn’t stop watching."
www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/identifying-as-male-and-giving-birth-made-me-the-happiest-ive-ever-been_uk_5a5f745ae4b096ecfca9a534
Note that this TIF is now spreading the gospel of trans to kids: "Feel Happy with My Gender Fix."

[bombadino]

For all the waffle about being my authentic self etc, the reverse is true. To transition is to reject the very core of who you are and to assume an identity that is fake, built on crumbling foundations. I think very few people can sustain a lifetime of that façade, and I imagine enormous issues are being stored up for the future when those birds come home to roost.

Exactly my fear. I only hope there will be enough of them to help each other come to terms with what they have done and accept themselves in that part of their lives.

[bombadino]

The female detransitioners and reidentiffiers link is very interesting thanks chromeyellow

[Helmetbymidnight]

I very tentatively raised this with a mental health professional friend.
She said they're not allowed to say this isn't a great idea (obviously) even though that's what they're thinking. She said people come back after surgery and say 'but I'm still not happy!'
She wonders, in some cases, if problem is exacerbated because lesbians have a poor image in society and young women think 'I don't want to be one of those..'

[ladyballs]

My niece is 18 and came 'out' at 16. She's changed her name but is obviously a young woman. She's vulnerable and I think she's jumped on transitioning as the answer to her discomfort about herself.

She knows I'm gender critical and that people call me a TERF. She also knows I love her dearly. I think she understands that I want the best for her.

I use her preferred male name but will never believe she's a male.

[LangCleg]

I think also, that testosterone in women is going to turn out to cause more damage than oestrogen in men. I worry for the long term health of these girls.

[ceesadu18]

A child/teen/adult does not transition to a different gender on a whim. A FtM patient can't just receive a prescription for testosterone in a jiffy. There are protocols in place, like counselling and living as the other gender for a year+. Whyyyyy would someone choose to go through a gender transition or the gender reassignment process unless they absolutely felt like they had to? I really don't believe that this is a trend or a fad. The voices you mention like Alex and SlyLark surely just offer the voice of experience to people who are going through the same emotions. It is really not our place to comment on what's happening below their belts.

Also: being a lesbian and being trans are very different things. Maybe some people identify as a lesbian on the way to discovering their gender identity. But I would argue that a lot of lesbian girls/women have no issue with their assigned gender. Sexuality and gender don't necessarily need to blend.

Lastly my mother is not embarrassed about having a lesbian daughter.