I now have chest pain!

[cafeaulaitpourvous]

Just ventured into the terfisaslur website and the whole site has actually given me chest pain - my anxiety has sky rocketed.

They really hate us don't they? I have never been hated before like this ( I know it's not me personally but it's my beliefs).

I am a left leaning woman of fifty with a lesbian daughter and I am scared for her and all women and girls. I used to be on the 'oh let them be who they want to be - we should respect everyone and help them' but fucking hell this is an onslaught..... it feels like we are at war and our womanhood is at stake.

Fucking shitting bastarding bollocks


My chest pain is improving now

[JAPAB]

You could probably find similar vitriol against racists and homophobes.

In fact, one even says something like 'destroy all terfs, racists, misogynists, transphobes...'.

Yes, some people really do hate those who are against, or perceived to be against tnem and their rights, but despite all the sounding off, very little seems to happen outside of words on a monitor screen.

So while stuff like that all looks horrible, if you are anti-trans, anti-homosexual, anti-black, or their rights, while you might expect extreme words you probably don't need to go into hiding.

[Thelilywhite]

cafeaulaitpourvous
Youre brave! I darent go on there.
I have a permanent pain in my jaw so I know what you mean!
JAPAB
Whilst I agree its probably not a good idea to live in fear all the time I disagree with very little seems to happen outside of words on a monitor screen.
Did you not see what happened to so called terfs at hyde park recently? Also to women trying to organise and speak at gender critical feminist meetings?

[Anlaf]

Grim isn't it - and so easily it rolls off their keyboards! I'd agree with thelily that there are decent real life reasons to fear actual violence, e.g. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3036489-Woman-attacked-by-transactivists-at-speakers-corner-part-deux

and www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3102159-Helen-Steels-speech-from-Cambridge-Womens-Place-meeting

But even if all this online fury produces is the perception that speaking out will be dangerous, then it does its work.

And it teaches people who are wavering in their loyalty to the group, what will happen if they transgress.

See also Jack Monroe getting "die terf cunt" for rightly calling out dodgy rape stuff on a profile belonging to an elected Labour Party women's officer

[Anlaf]

I don't want to further your discomfort cafe but here is a young woman on the side of the transactivitists who tried to stop one of them beating up Maria at speakers corner.

He turns round and shoves her and it's bloody intimidating.

I'd be amazed if the online fury against those nasty terfs didn't make him feel a bit righteous in hitting any woman who disagrees with him

And if she's not got herself well away from this bloke, she'll have learned what happens when you don't go along with it

[Ereshkigal]

Do you think rape and death threats and the vilest of vile misogyny are A OK then JAPAB? Stupid question.

[cafeaulaitpourvous]

I have been watching these threads and I saw the Hyde Park incident online - I was appalled.

My peak trans moment came when I was told by a TIM in the middle of a field how he gets his kicks sexually now as he has had the surgery. And then in the next breath how his poor wife is having counseling due to PTSD 'and other things'. I looked behind him at her and I could see in her eyes how she was being controlled by him. He said she was a good' un for supporting him and how their lesbian relationship was so much better now it was an authentic relationship.
The TIM looks just the same as he did a couple of years ago before his changes.....

[Ereshkigal]

How awful. It's often so abusive.

[JAPAB]

Whilst I agree its probably not a good idea to live in fear all the time I disagree with very little seems to happen outside of words on a monitor screen.

Yes I was aware of the incident you refer to. But there aren't too many such incidents are there?

I reckon that stistically you are more likely to have gotten a thump (or worse) by getting on the wrong side of homosexuals or black people (whether you were genuinely being racist or homophobic, or certain individuals within these groups thought you were being) than you are being a "terf".

As you say, not good to live in fear. Keeping a sense of proportion is probably best, if you are having chest pains and anxiety attacks in fear of the trans-extremists.

[Anlaf]

Christ cafe supportive even through her PTSD and other things.

I find feminist activism is good for the heart, I'm often fearless now, although very aware of the risks.

[Anlaf]

BTW I am stealing this from Red on the LM thread:

Power comes from realising that individual voices, however small or against what ever odds are important. This is why authoritarians peddle propaganda. Not to make you change your mind, but so you feel powerless and insignificant.

You are not.

[Lancelottie]

JAPAB, you're male, as far as I recall.

Trust me, you do NOT understand the level of ingrained wariness about what might happen, for real, very commonly, if you cross someone shouting hate and threats at you.

I notice that you've cheerily conflated homophobia with transphobia, despite the OP saying clearly that she is afraid for her homosexual daughter. Thanks.

[cafeaulaitpourvous]

Ah that's why I felt as if I was being poo pooed.... as if what I was saying was stupid

You are a man @JAPAB !!!!

Yep even through the relatively anonymous Mumsnet you made me question my thoughts ... wow!

[PencilsInSpace]

But there aren't too many such incidents are there?

No because on the whole women have been terrified into silence.

Why don't you tell all these people that it's just words on a screen?

OP.

[Lancelottie]

Or to put it another way, JAPAB, there are too many such incidents.
The threat of more of them is a real threat.

[JAPAB]

Lancelottie JAPAB, you're male, as far as I recall.

Trust me, you do NOT understand the level of ingrained wariness about what might happen, for real, very commonly, if you cross someone shouting hate and threats at you.

That is not the sole preserve of females is it? Males of various stripes - certain religions, sexualities, races, or those who are in opposition to these groups and their rights - will have had this.

But irrespective of who does or doesn't have an "insight" into the wariness that comes with being in an ideological or other group that can be loathed by some others, there are objective statistical elements here. But it is a free country. People are free to carry on having chest pains and anxiety attacks over perceived threats that the statistics tell us are rare almost to the point of non-existence. Bit of a shame though IMO.

PencilsInSpace No because on the whole women have been terrified into silence.

"On the whole" is this even on the radar for most women? That is quite the speculation. That there is a terrified majority and if they were to start joining in protests and so on, then the amount of incidents like the one at Hyde Park would skyrocket.

Why don't you tell all these people that it's just words on a screen?

I wouldn't say "just" as that is trivialising. I might however point out that outside of those words on the screen very little seems to be happening, if someone was to report chest pains and anxiety issues, as I'd find it a shame that they are letting it affect them into a state that is disproprtionate to the physical risk.

[CaptainWarbeck]

Oh JAPAB bog off.

[DJBaggySmalls]

Its interesting to see how society has created a socially acceptable outlet for hatred of women, and how quickly it has been adopted.

[Ereshkigal]

Just don't respond to him. He will derail and dismiss in his disingenuous way.

[christinarossetti]

Yes, it's an awful truth that some trans activists do hate women. I mean really, really hate us.

I almost miss the days of male chauvinist pigs. At least they weren't telling us that they were more oppressed than them and that, actually, they are us, and we are not.

[StigOfThePlump]

Tbh, I feel sympathy for a lot of trans people. They may be a bit shrill and vitriolic at times, but no more so than the worst examples of feminism IMHO. I'd hate to feel stuck in the wrong body and have to accept that there was no way I will ever be accepted and that people will actually fight to stop me integrating with what I feel is my gender.

However, I also fully appreciate the very legitimate concerns around self ID too. It must feel hopeless for some trans people as I'd imagine they don't want to have to carry some kind of identification card that reminds them that they'll never surmount their problem or be truly accepted. And the irony that part of this is because of the potential actions of other men who aren't even necessarily trans and would just abuse the loophole. I truly think that this situation is mutually exclusive in terms of a result which will satisfy both sides.

[Ereshkigal]

They may be a bit shrill and vitriolic at times, but no more so than the worst examples of feminism IMHO.

It's a bit more than "shrill and vitriolic" actually. Horrifying misogyny is really quite commonplace in trans support communities. Many of these men absolutely loathe women.

[Lancelottie]

Oh lovely. Stig, assuming you are generally a well-meaning type, could you lay off the 'shrill and vitriolic' stereotype used for women, gay men and now transwomen?

The people I have heard reported as throwing actual vitriol or other corrosives at people have been men.

[JAPAB]

christinarossetti Yes, it's an awful truth that some trans activists do hate women. I mean really, really hate us.

Some of them certainly hate the subsection of women who oppose them and trans rights. How many of them hate women per se is another matter. It is to be expected with this sort of thing. Go against any traditionally oppressed minority group and oppose them/their (believed) rights, and some of them will not love you for it. No reason why the trans issue would be any different. More of a surprise if it didn't have this facet to it.

[DJBaggySmalls]

What are trans rights?
Women are a specific category. the definition is exclusionary as are all definitions
The exclusions exist for the safety of women.

Trans people are welcome to their own spaces and services. They are not welcome to rewrite the law to put women at risk from predatory men.

[BahHumbygge]

Transwomen don't hate women per se, they just hate the fawning-refuseniks, the pesky gender non conforming ones and the not-especially-feminine ones, as it invalidates their blueprint onto which they project their fantasy of womanhood. See India Willoughby opining on the disgustingness of women not shaving their legs.