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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Aibu to think rape is not merely about power and sometimes is just about sex?

234 replies

CheeseBubbles · 23/06/2017 12:04

I see it said a lot and I'm not convinced. If rape is solely about power there's no point teaching men about consent is there? If anything they might use the knowledge to better abuse their victims. Isn't it possible that for some men they simply want sex and don't actually give a shit one way or another what the victim is thinking. On the relationship board you'll see men who try it on nicely at first and then move on to coercion which makes me think again that this is just sex for them because they'd happily get it the easy way if possible. I don't know if it really makes a difference but I worry that if we assign this one motivation to it we draw a line that doesn't really need to be there and maybe make men who used garden variety coercion or a really drunk woman to think they didn't actually rape, because for them it wasn't a power trip.

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Collidascope · 23/06/2017 12:24

I was thinking about this a couple of days ago. I reckon with the men who try it on with their partners and then commit rape when that doesn't work, it's not that they're actually getting off on the power of rape, but power is still very much a part of the crime. In that situation the man has to be assuming that the woman belongs to him on some level, that his feelings are more important, that her body should be there as his receptacle, regardless of her feelings.
Also, with the way porn is going, I think more and more men are binding sex and domination/power/abuse together, and can't separate them. The women are always passive and being "rammed" or "destroyed", and their reactions are blurred between pleasure and pain. And then men have this extremely pleasurable experience -orgasm- as they watch stuff, reinforcing that power over women is good.

NoLoveofMine · 23/06/2017 12:30

It's about a complete contempt for women and inability to see women as human beings in any context. I think all rape is at some level about power and control. It's not about sex as it isn't sex. If it was about sex then in the instance of rape within a relationship, the man would accept the woman's response if she wasn't feeling into it at that point rather than persist knowing full well she wasn't in the mood. That persistence and going on to rape is him exerting power over her.

Teaching about consent is vital because children are growing up in an environment saturated by sexualised images with violent pornography mainstream and normalised in which women are degraded and demeaned routinely. Many boys and girls think this is normal and what sex is, shown by how many girls experience this kind of thing on a first sexual encounter at such a young age.

CheeseBubbles · 23/06/2017 12:30

Also, with the way porn is going, I think more and more men are binding sex and domination/power/abuse together, and can't separate them. The women are always passive and being "rammed" or "destroyed", and their reactions are blurred between pleasure and pain. And then men have this extremely pleasurable experience -orgasm- as they watch stuff, reinforcing that power over women is good.

I agree with all of that but at this point that's not even rape anymore it's almost standard vanilla sex.

Do you think there is any point in teaching consent to boys and teens as if rape is about power and always a specific choice made then there's no point? (If I'm making myself clear).

To explain we teach boys to confirm that a girl wants to have sex and is enthusiastic as we are assuming they might not even realise they've done something that is basically rape right?

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NoLoveofMine · 23/06/2017 12:32

I agree with all of that but at this point that's not even rape anymore it's almost standard vanilla sex.

No it's not. Just because we're growing up surrounded by this does not mean we accept it as "standard" even if pressured to.

CheeseBubbles · 23/06/2017 12:32

elationship, the man would accept the woman's response if she wasn't feeling into it at that point rather than persist knowing full well she wasn't in the mood. That persistence and going on to rape is him exerting power over her.

But in this instance would he have even asked in the first place? To me it seems like being prepared to take sex in the easiest manner and then moving on to rape because he didn't get it easily.

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CheeseBubbles · 23/06/2017 12:34

You don't need to argue that it's wrong to me, I'm using standard to mean, prevalence. You can get SM gear from Tesco now. It's no longer kinky

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NoLoveofMine · 23/06/2017 12:35

But in this instance would he have even asked in the first place? To me it seems like being prepared to take sex in the easiest manner and then moving on to rape because he didn't get it easily.

Yes he would. In this instance, he wanted sex. He was prepared to exert power and control over the woman and move on to rape. He may have "wanted" sex in the first place but that's not what then took place - which shows the desire to have this power over a woman he was in a relationship with was there. If he wanted sex, he'd initiate it again another time when the woman was more into it, or wait for her to.

NoLoveofMine · 23/06/2017 12:36

You don't need to argue that it's wrong to me, I'm using standard to mean, prevalence. You can get SM gear from Tesco now. It's no longer kinky

I'm glad our nearest supermarket is Waitrose in this case.

CheeseBubbles · 23/06/2017 12:45

cause children are growing up in an environment saturated by sexualised images with violent pornography mainstream and normalised in which women are degraded and demeaned routinely. Many boys and girls think this is normal and what sex is, shown by how many girls experience this kind of thing on a first sexual encounter at such a young age.

Your answer here sounds similar to the point I'm trying to make unless we're merely disagreeing over generations? As in you could see what is essentially rape being seen as normal by a young boy now in the future. But not see it that way for a man now?

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CheeseBubbles · 23/06/2017 12:46

Tbf I think it was a tie in (no pun intended) to 50 shades of shit, and I started a thread about it. I believe everyone on MN decided I was the worst sort of prude.

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CheeseBubbles · 23/06/2017 12:46

Tesco s bondage collection I mean...

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NoLoveofMine · 23/06/2017 12:51

I think the messages being absorbed by mainstream pornography are extremely worrying. There is a lack of understanding of consent generally - this doesn't simply mean consenting to sex but that acts within that also require consent. Consenting to sex doesn't mean consenting to a boy acting out any violent scene he's learnt from pornography, or all kinds of sex. Kissing isn't giving consent. There is a concerning lack of awareness of this amongst many in my opinion.

At the same time, rape jokes and use of them and comments about rape are used regularly by some boys, showing they've already learnt rape is about power and control, their power over women and girls, something they will always hold over us. A reminder that no matter what, it's an option open to them.

I don't see rape as a generational thing in general. A man who attempts to initiate sex with a partner, is declined, persists and makes the decision to rape is knowingly using his power in that situation and showing his contempt for women in viewing them as existing for his own gratification.

NoLoveofMine · 23/06/2017 12:53

Tbf I think it was a tie in (no pun intended) to 50 shades of shit

I find this kind of thing very worrying. I have no issue with people expressing their own sexual desires and being free to do so, but this book and film seem to have enforced the idea it's natural for women and girls to crave being submissive and controlled by men which is extremely worrying. Why is it only this brand of "kink" which has become mainstream, not women and girls being dominant?

sashh · 23/06/2017 12:57

On the relationship board you'll see men who try it on nicely at first and then move on to coercion which makes me think again that this is just sex for them because they'd happily get it the easy way if possible.

But that's power. That's not taking no for an answer, not considering what the other person wants or valuing their wants/needs.

Is it possible for a man to rape without realising it? Well - Ched Evans.

regrouted · 23/06/2017 13:01

Some men they simply want sex and don't actually give a shit one way or another what the victim is thinking.

They don't care what the women are thinking because the women that they rape are objects and objects aren't afforded personhood. I agree that these men and of course many women, might not think that this is rape, but this is because of the myths and notions of "natural order of things" which underpin why women are subjugated based on the biological realities of being female.

The first time I was sexually assaulted (I've been groped more than once), I was walking to school in my school uniform and was dragged down a residential cul de sac by three men; my Grandma still says things like "well if you lead a man on by going to his house then you are obligated to give him what he wants" and "oh goodness I'm so glad I've got all granddaughters, they'll get married and not have the pressures of making decisions in life like you have with boys".

Teaching consent fights the cultural notions that men should be sexually assertive as to demonstrate their masculinity; that forcing women to have sex is part of a broader "natural order of things"' - not only for men as something that they must do because biology, but also the notion that the little erratic woman indoors can be controlled and rationalised by it and actually ask for it/deserve it and then as we see with Scarlett O'Hara, they'll actually enjoy it.

TLDR: In teaching men about consent, we're teaching them that women are not biological objects designed for male sexual gratification.

CheeseBubbles · 23/06/2017 13:04

Why is it only this brand of "kink" which has become mainstream, not women and girls being dominant?

I wonder that too.

If we use the rape=control line do you think we risk making it easier for men to ignore they're rapists. So to use Sash's example of the charming Ched. At 3 am or whenever it was and he didn't even know what girl he was going to assault do you think he looks back and says "I wanted to control her" or "I wanted to get my leg over" (or something equally lovely).

I can see the feminist argument for it being control but if men aren't seeing it that way aren't we making it easier for them to see rape as something done by scary 'other men'.

I think sometimes it's too easy to make rape seem as something done by monsters and not just normal men.

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NoLoveofMine · 23/06/2017 13:13

But rape is an exertion of power, control and an expression of contempt for women and girls, no matter the circumstance it occurs in. It's a complete disdain for women and girls and lack of respect for our bodily autonomy and us as people. Whichever way an individual looks back on rape, it was control and he had the power to exert to carry it out.

If men who rape their partners or women they meet on a night out aren't seeing it that way and are seeing it as "they just really wanted sex" then they're denying the reality. If all they want is sex and they'll go to any lengths to get it then they're happy to use and exert power and control over women and girls. This isn't making it easy to see them as monsters in my opinion but shows how worryingly common this is amongst normal men.

CheeseBubbles · 23/06/2017 13:35

See I see rape as a societal control of women. Even blatantly when used by militias and I suspect that the research done on men who rape is more of the sort who get caught, the old fashioned jumped out of an alley kind, who probably do see it as a control. I just have suspicions that average lefty liberal Joe doesn't see it that way. I think he sees to much porn, hears too many jokes and doesn't really see consent to sex as more important than continully harassing a mate for a tenner. "He said yes in the end"Even though the argument could be made that it's about control (sorry if I've missed points) pushing buggy to a school fete) Hmm but I'll be back to thread later

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CheeseBubbles · 23/06/2017 13:37

Oh and please done misunderstand my intentions for thread. I don't think his intentions rally matter if you rape someone you're as culpable as me waving a knife around and "accidentally " stabbing someone

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QuentinSummers · 23/06/2017 13:42

Ched Evans is not a good example of someone raping "without realising it".
Ched Evans is a good example of just how crap some men are at getting consent, or a good example that some men don't care if they have consent.
He didn't even bother to speak to his victim.

DJBaggySmalls · 23/06/2017 13:49

'Because men dont get it' or 'because men use a lot of porn and think thats what sex is' is not a good enough reason to change the legal definitions.

There are 3 kinds of rape. Anger, power/control, and sadistic.
The type of porn fuelled rape you are talking about is a power rape. He wants what he wants and he's going to get it, regardless of consent. If you say no he wants to win you round or wear you down.
Plus he gets the thrill of exerting his 'dominance'.

Anger rapes tend to be the 'jump out of a dark alley' type of rape. He wants someone to take it out on.
Sadistic rapes involve using the victim as a receptacle for various bodily fluids, and inflicting injury. They tend to be the rarest type but also used to have the highest rate of prosecution, because there tends to be so much evidence.

cadnowyllt · 23/06/2017 13:51

In his witness account Ched Evans said that the complainant enthusiastically consented.

DJBaggySmalls · 23/06/2017 13:52

I've been known to enthusiastically eat a doner kebab when plastered.

alpacasandwich · 23/06/2017 13:54

Isn't it possible that for some men they simply want sex and don't actually give a shit one way or another what the victim is thinking.

But that's still all about power. Taking sex from someone whether they want to give it or not

If it was just about sex they could masturbate but they don't, they assault a woman and do things to her body against her will.

alpacasandwich · 23/06/2017 13:55

In his witness account Ched Evans said that the complainant enthusiastically consented.

Of course, because it was his word against hers and he was going to get done for rape. That doesn't mean he's not lying.

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