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Until we organise as well as the transactivists we're not going to stem the problem

(768 Posts)
dorade Thu 09-Mar-17 10:13:17

Everyone, regardless of race, creed or sex is entitles to the same human rights.

I have three issues with much of the current trans ideology:

1. The erosion of women's spaces, sports, achievements and quotas by biological males who wish to identify as females.

2. The transing (and therefore subjection to lifelong medical treatments, invasive surgery and potential sterilisation) of children for failure to comply with societally-imposed gender norms.

3. The erasure of lesbians, either by transing of potentially lesbian girls or by transwomen claiming to be lesbians.

The trans lobby is vocal and well funded. They have found an enormously soft target in schools/government/social care, all of whom unsurprisingly associate transgender with gay and lesbian issues and don't want to repeat the bigotry that gay and lesbian people were (and are) subjected to. Identity is not the same as sexual orientation. A person's sexual orientation treads on no-one else's rights. The same cannot be said for gender identity.

When articles, such as the recent transgender rapist one, appear in the press, the vast majority of comments show that the public is not fooled. Yet people keep quiet so as not to appear bigoted, thus allowing the movement to steamroller on at the expense of women and children.

I believe that the main target for opposition should be in our schools. Organisations such as Gires and Gendered Intelligence distribute material that promotes ideas such as pink and blue brains and that any child can choose whether to be a girl or a boy to impressionable children, backed up by teachers. Opposition to this is needed and it is not happening in any concerted way. I think a backlash has every chance of succeeding as there is huge latent support for it.

The average person in the street knows little to nothing of trans issues, but is likely to believe that a transwoman will have had his penis removed. The fact that in 2 weeks' time the Government is going to be debating replacing sex with gender identity as a protected characteristic is way off the radar of 99% of the population.

Mumsnet is brilliant in debating these issues, but we need to take it to the next level.

Boofeckinghoo Thu 09-Mar-17 11:44:16

I agree but how do we go about this? Anyone questioning this ideology is branded a bigot and ostracised. How would we bring this to fruition if it cannot be discussed?
What needs to happen is this questioning needs to become mainstream because, as you say the lay person doesn't know the facts but who would want to risk everything to do it? Jenni Murray is a good example of this and no doubt how she was demonised for it will deter many others.

We need what the TRAs have: a fucktonne of money and influence.

mirrorisnotmyfriend Thu 09-Mar-17 11:47:05

I think we need some more well off or well known figureheads. And a campaign with clear aims. The Women's Movement UK is fledgling but an organisation like this could front a campaign - something like Trans and Women's Rights - Equal, but not the same? Because that is our point, in a nutshell.

ghostlyghoulie Thu 09-Mar-17 11:57:27

I think this is an excellent thread. A minority of people with loud voices are skewing things whilst the majority moderate voice is scared to speak out. It feels a very uncomfortable place. Jenni Murray speaking out was a start. A credible figurehead is definitely needed. Meanwhile, scary things like this are creeping into our schools:

DJBaggySmalls Thu 09-Mar-17 12:54:04

I'll be following this with interest. I think the Trans movement is actually driven by MRA's. I've seen that openly discussed online.

The MRA movement dont critisize themselves and they deflect. So for example they do nothing to fundraise for mens rape crisis or DV shelter places. They dont tackle issues such as violent men or absent fathers. And they are happy to use aggressive arguments and tactics against people they target.

BevGoldbergsSister Thu 09-Mar-17 14:23:57

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

picklemepopcorn Thu 09-Mar-17 15:31:49

I don't want the battle ground to be in schools. I want wider society to remember that girls are hampered by gender norms, and to promote gender neutral toys and clothes. I thought we were getting somewhere with this last year. If we can remind everyone that anyone can dress anyhow and work in any industry a lot of this ought to go away on its own. We seem to have lost ground in the last twenty years.

BevGoldbergsSister Thu 09-Mar-17 15:36:35

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

roarityroar Thu 09-Mar-17 15:41:00

I am so glad to see this thread and entirely support the campaign.

How bloody dare they erase our sex, erode our rights and brainwash our children?! How bloody dare they.

ArcheryAnnie Thu 09-Mar-17 16:12:25

In case anyone is in London next week and feeling confident, Ruth Hunt of Stonewall (currently throwing lesbians under the bus) is speaking at a public event at the LSE next Tuesday evening- free, no need to book, first come, first served.

genderrefusenik Thu 09-Mar-17 16:30:09

I've actually just joined Mumsnet for this reason. I hit peak trans recently and this site seems to be a good place to find other feminists who get this stuff. Reddit has helped me to understand trans politics but seems more US focused and, as the OP says, we need to organise in our own countries to stop it causing harm.

I had weeks of feeling angry now I know the extent of the problem, and reeling that we're in this position. The tyranny of gender is actually worse than when I was growing up in the 80s. The problem as I see it is not what people believe as such but the material effects that flow from those beliefs: legislation, women in the public eye being bashed for speaking, the miseducation and medical maltreatment of children, etc.

So far I've written to my MP over the Gender Recognition Bill but have heard nothing back so far... We've a while to go before the third reading in the HoC, so time to lobby yet. I'm also going to contact journalists/publications to express my support when gender critical material appears in the public sphere.

I'm looking forward to learning what others come up with.

fakenamefornow Thu 09-Mar-17 16:48:51

If this bill is passed what will you have to do to 'register' as the opposite sex? Change you passport etc? If it's just say so/write to them and say you are now male and XXX one way to point out how stupid that is would be to just all register as men.

I think if this bill is passed it may well be repealed in 20 years time, when they see how many children have been damaged by being transed, women assaulted, getting pregnant while in a female prison and erased from sport. Another thing I do worry about is how this could affect crime stats, if crimes committed by biological males are recorded as being committed by women.

ghostlyghoulie Thu 09-Mar-17 17:03:30

Fakenamefornow - I love that idea - we all just register as male. That'd learn 'em....

fakenamefornow Thu 09-Mar-17 17:04:45

Actually, that's an idea, we could all just declare ourselves male and go join that bloody golf club in Scotland. Pope! we could try to become the Pope! Are we allowed to be bishops yet?

Railgunner1 Thu 09-Mar-17 17:31:50

Request a scholarship to Eton for a trans-boy.

BewitchedBotheredandBewildered Thu 09-Mar-17 17:53:45

BevGoldberg it's even more bizarre than that, it says women like to receive blow jobs.

It would be funny.

If it absolutely wasn't.

Neglectedbythesun Thu 09-Mar-17 18:19:39

Dorado, thank you for perfectly articulating my concerns. I absolutely want to be tolerant, supportive and progressive in supporting trans individuals, but absolutely not at the expense of what you've described. I don't want to hurt anyone. But the discourse around this subject is drowning out those who think all parties can get most of what they want without treading on others. Watching.

EmpressoftheMundane Thu 09-Mar-17 18:35:59

Maybe we could write to every MP asking them how they plan to vote, and explain that they will be listed on mumsnet?

picklemepopcorn Thu 09-Mar-17 18:39:55

Yes, I read it Bev and was horrified. But the teachers I know (nursery/primary) are all very much against sex discrimination and gender divisions, and wouldn't need much persuading to reject this stuff out of hand. A little bit of a culture change about girls and boys not being determined by preference for pink and sparkly, makes all this stupidity obvious.

Although the outcome of this nastiness is sweeping and absolutely unacceptable, it is all founded on something so flimsy and ridiculous that it ought to be easy to demolish.

Sorry I'm a bit inarticulate tonight. I can't seem to find my words!

picklemepopcorn Thu 09-Mar-17 18:40:44

I get on quite well with my MP and can have a word with him I think. When is it all happening?

Secretspillernamechange Thu 09-Mar-17 18:46:34

Placemarking. I'm in London next Tuesday but have an interview the next day so won't be able to go and raise hell in the evening, but otherwise am very interested in getting involved.

IAmAmy Thu 09-Mar-17 18:52:26

I do wish I could do something about this, I find it incredibly worrying how little debate is accepted on this and any deviation from the "trans women are women and anyone who identifies as a woman is a woman" line is seen as bigoted. Very reassuring to see how many see this for what it is here and read of how much support the Sunday Times has received for Jenni Murray.

dorade Thu 09-Mar-17 19:05:18


It's being debated on Friday 24th March. Most MPs go back to their constituencies on Thursdays I think so it may not be well attended. Perhaps someone who knows the workings of Parliament better than me can help.

enoughisenough12 Thu 09-Mar-17 19:38:27

The CPS pack is really sinister and the analysis is excellent. This needs as wide a circulation as possible.
I'd suggest this is posted in the staff room so that teachers can have a look as they'll be the ones having sight of this as it hits schools.

fakenamefornow Thu 09-Mar-17 19:47:50

The CPS pack is really sinister and the analysis is excellent

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