Resident cat showing aggression to a new kitten..

[miccoops]

Hi All,

Hoping for some advice/reassurance. We have an adult male cat (Leo age 6) and 1.5 weeks ago we brought home a new kitten (Pepper 8 weeks). I've taken intros slow, kitten has her own room, did scent swapping etc. I'm doing short play/treat based meetings between them and they eat meals in the same room.

To begin with Leo was hissing A LOT and growling.. he would growl and hiss when entering Peppers room even if she wasn't in there and wouldn't rub up or come near me if I had petted her. He wouldn't come in the living room after she had been in there (even though she was put in her room) This as now stopped, he can be in the same room and I can distract him for a little while with playing and giving treats, or if he is eating.. BUT when he see's Pepper at some point he will march over and hiss right in her face, and is now swatting at her.. he doesn't hurt her and then just turns and runs off.. she's very well natured and just stays still until he stop, never fights back or anything.. and then once he has gone she gets back to playing!

Does it sound like things are going in the right direction? The hissing and growling is definitely better but the swatting/bopping at her isn't great :-(

I've brought 2 feliway friends plugins and some calming drops for Leo.

Thanks!
Michelle

This isn't what you want to hear, but I was in the exact same position. I persevered and like you did everything you're supposed to do to help make them more comfortable and now - six years on - they still hate each other.

I'm not looking for them to bond/be besties or anything.. my aim is for them to tolerate each other.. @LaLoose - do yours still fight? My Pepper is so tiny and Leo is massive so I can't not supervise although they are only meeting for short period during the day for meals, and then one play/treat session..

I'm afraid they fight every time they see each other. If I had my time again, though it would have been extremely difficult, I would probably have rehomed the kittens. I was convinced it would settle down. And my resident cat HAD BEEN a mother so I thought she'd be maternal. Ha ha (hollow laugh).

@LaLoose Oh dear.. ok and did it sound like my description? So Leo will happily eat next to Pepper. (no way he would have done that a week ago) and can play etc in the same room as her for a period of time, 5-10 mins.. he just seems to reach his limit and then starts hissing etc.. I try to get her out the room ASAP and stop treats/playtime with Leo - but don't tell him off.. I was hoping that given the hissing has reduced a little we were on the right lines.. and that they can now eat next to each other without hissing or aggression..

It’s only been 10 days which is nothing and I would expect no different. They may not be besties but I suspect things will get easier in the coming months.

I had the very same issue years ago bringing a new kitten into the house with my older cat.
It took about a month for older cat to "tolerate" the new kitten and they were soon friends.

The fact that the hissing is not so frequent suggests things are moving in the right direction for your cats.

One thing that massively helped mine was the Feliway plug in. It just chills them right out.

Thanks @BeeyatchPlease that was my hope.. hissing is improving and a lot less growling too. Did your big cat bat at the kitten - that's the main concern, I think his claws are in and its more like a warning.. but literally the poor kitten is sitting doing nothing and he'll walk over.. sniff, then hiss and then swat.. then runs off..

It took Sybil 6 months to 'accept' the kittens. Trouble is it backfired on her because Lenny clearly now hates her.

@Grumpyoldpersonwithcats 6 months.. what did you do when the big cat picked a fight with little one? At the moment I am obv stopping it as Pepper is tiny.. but as she gets bigger do you let it play out more? Leo is a big Tom so I'm nervous although he seems to be more putting her in her place rather than trying to hurt here... He's an avid hunter so would certainly know how to hurt her if he wanted too.. thankfully not happened and I am keeping a very watchful eye

@miccoops

I'm not looking for them to bond/be besties or anything.. my aim is for them to tolerate each other.. *@LaLoose* - do yours still fight? My Pepper is so tiny and Leo is massive so I can't not supervise although they are only meeting for short period during the day for meals, and then one play/treat session..

I know it's not what you want to hear OP but this makes me so sad.

You want two cats so much that you're willing to make them both miserable or at best to have a tolerable life? What about a happy life without constant social anxiety?

I'm probably biased but I see a lot of cats with chronic anxiety leading to health and behaviour problems because they're forced to live with other unrelated cats.

Yes cats can live happily together in some cases - more likely if they're raised together from kittens, and yes it absolutely can work well in some cases, but it's such a gamble. Why risk your existing cat's health and happiness for no benefit?

I assume you've optimised the environment as per the ISFM guidelines journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1098612X13477537 in addition to the other things you've done?

Cats protection told me that they seldom get along and cats are much less stressed if there is only one. The best you can hope for are two low level stressed cats and at worst behavioural issues (marking etc). People think cats want a little friend but really they don’t..

@Veterinari I think you are mistaking my use of the word tolerate. I don't mean a tolerable existence, I mean acceptance of each other. We are adore Leo and have kept his routine exactly the same, he is only seeing Pepper for short periods and is continuing his happy life. He is still eating well, curling up on my lap and generally a happy cat. We have a lot of love to offer and wanted to add another to our family.. whats so wrong with that? I am following guidance and taking it slow.. I posted for some assurance we are going in the right direction.. that is all.. not to be bashed for offering a kitten in need a loving home...

Sybil would hiss and growl at the kittens whenever she saw them. We just made sure that she had lots of fuss when either of the kittens was in the room. Her behaviour towards us never changed.

@miccoops it seems you get a different response on here depending on who responds to your thread! I’ve posted recently about issues with introducing my cat to a kitten and have had lots of positive stories from posters who have successfully integrated new cats so don’t give up hope... I’m not!

[quote miccoops]@Veterinari I think you are mistaking my use of the word tolerate. I don't mean a tolerable existence, I mean acceptance of each other. We are adore Leo and have kept his routine exactly the same, he is only seeing Pepper for short periods and is continuing his happy life. He is still eating well, curling up on my lap and generally a happy cat. We have a lot of love to offer and wanted to add another to our family.. whats so wrong with that? I am following guidance and taking it slow.. I posted for some assurance we are going in the right direction.. that is all.. not to be bashed for offering a kitten in need a loving home...[/quote]
But is it worth it at the expense of your existing cat's happiness? This thread already has examples of cats that are living unhappily together. In my experience 'tolerate' by human standards usually means one cat bullies the other into submission where it lives its life under the bed/in the cupboard/on the shelf occasionally dashing down for a bite to eat or a chin rub when it can pluck up the courage, but because there's no overt 'fighting' it's considered 'normal, shy' behaviour. In reality it's chronic anxiety and social conflict and is a pretty miserable life.

It may not be what you want to hear but it is constructive advice that focuses on the good welfare of your cats.

I've no doubt your intentions are good, but good intentions don't necessarily result in good outcomes. The reality is that most cats prefer to be alone, unless raised with others from kittens or with a few very placid breed exceptions. I'd honestly rethink whether your expectations are realistic with an older male single cat, and consider the impact your decision has on his welfare, not just your desire to 'rescue' a kitten.

icatcare.org/advice/multi-cat-households/

icatcare.org/advice/aggression-between-cats/

Above are some evidence-based articles on managing multi cat households and recognising aggression and how to mitigate it.

3D space and multiple resource 'stations' are some of the most important things you can do as per the guidelines in my previous link. That is honestly your best focus if you're determined to continue.

Managing multicat households well is often very expensive, and time and labour intensive.

@jobnockey thank you!

@Veterinari I would not accept either cat living their life 'hiding under a bed or on a cupboard' if its clear, in fair time, that it won't work, then of course I would do the right thing and re-home at that point. I have read up and followed all the advise online, am taking it very, very slowly and showering both cats with love. I really didn't post on here to get made to feel guilty or bad about the decision.. this was the first and last time I'll post of mumsnet if basically people will hijack the threads in this way.. it's really not why I came on..

I agree with @Veterinari. We rehomed a relative's cat after the relative passed with an existing female cat. They outwardly seemed to tolerate each other after a couple of weeks, but looking back they very rarely spent time in the same room willingly, and the girl cat was driven out of the house (ended up getting run over, sadly). You'd only find them in the same room if there was a coveted resource to have (so they'd both be on the same bed if a bedroom door was accidentally left open) and they'd club together against intruders, but it would've been much kinder to the existing cat to not rehome the other, and I do wonder if she'd still be with us if we'd not done that.

[quote miccoops]@Veterinari I would not accept either cat living their life 'hiding under a bed or on a cupboard' if its clear, in fair time, that it won't work, then of course I would do the right thing and re-home at that point. I have read up and followed all the advise online, am taking it very, very slowly and showering both cats with love. I really didn't post on here to get made to feel guilty or bad about the decision.. this was the first and last time I'll post of mumsnet if basically people will hijack the threads in this way.. it's really not why I came on..[/quote]
You're right. If you only want to hear a viewpoint that is the same as yours it's probably not the right site for you. But it's a shame if that's the case as there's a lot of knowledge and experience here, as long as you can cope with the fact not everyone will agree with you. I've actually supplied you with plenty of resources to support you, and other posters have given you good advice too.

If you're choosing to ignore that in preference of being offended and flouncing that's your choice. But don't blame others for your choices.

My frustration is that some posters have chosen to pass judgement on my choice, which wasn’t why I posted.. had I posted ‘should I get a kitten?’ Then sure I’m after these views.. but that wasn’t what I posted? I’m 11 days in and doing my best and needed support and instead just feel judged on a decision I’ve already made.. so yes maybe mumsnet isn’t for me as that is not helpful

@miccoops

My frustration is that some posters have chosen to pass judgement on my choice, which wasn’t why I posted.. had I posted ‘should I get a kitten?’ Then sure I’m after these views.. but that wasn’t what I posted? I’m 11 days in and doing my best and needed support and instead just feel judged on a decision I’ve already made.. so yes maybe mumsnet isn’t for me as that is not helpful

Where has anyone judged you? I've specifically said it's clear your intentions are good

You've been given a lot of good resources, read through them all, have a good look at the icatcare website and the environmental needs document.
Take a breath and try not to take things so personally. No one here is judging you

i rescued a 5 month old boy and brought him home to a house with 3 other cats. really big house, plenty of space. he’d been abused during his socialisation window and he didn’t really know how to Cat.

we kept him separate for 2 weeks, did scent-swapping, closed-door intros. all went swimmingly. within 2 months he was fully integrated. he spent a lot of time up on top of a wardrobe, but there was no fighting, lots of nose-boops and interaction when the others came in at the end of the day.

and then i split up with my ex, and brought my rescue boy (then 2) with me.

he’s a different cat. he went from completely silent to chatty and bossy, became a very much next-to-me cat and then progressed to lap cat. i thought that he was happy with the other cats. absence of fighting does not equal happiness. he is so happy now, and i feel bad for making the assumption that he had integrated into the old household when clearly he was permanently nervous.

he’ll be 4 in feb and i am just so happy that i’ve made him happy.

some cats just don’t get along, you can’t make it happen. sometimes tolerance is all you’ll get, but that doesn’t mean you have happy kitties.

maybe slow down on the interactions and go back to sniffing through a mostly-closed door. don’t leave the kitten out in a big enough space for the older cat to be able to get to him and start with the swatting and the hissing. you need to be able to completely control each and every interaction at this point, it’s not a watch-and-wait kind of a deal.

i wish you all the best. just, go back to basics and ease right back on focussing on how long they can interact without aggression. there shouldn’t be any aggression. slow and steady wins the race.

or, as other posters have suggested, this situation just isn’t doable. you haven’t failed, you just can’t predict how cats will react to a newcomer.

Hi OP. Has your older cat Leo lived with other cats before? It's a bit hard to assess how it's going without knowing that rather crucial piece of information so I'm surprised no one else has asked.

Generally, though, a kitten of the opposite sex is probably going to be the least threatening proposition for him and give the best chance of success.

As for multi-cat households, yes, sure, in an ideal world most cats probably would prefer to be on their own but the reality is that most cat-loving people with suitable conditions for a cat usually already have at least one so shelters already struggle to find homes for those cats that really can't live with other cats. So cats are often placed in muti-cat households because being in a loving home with access to the outdoors is still far, far better for them than being stuck in a shelter or running feral, even when it means sharing with another cat.

Has your older cat Leo lived with other cats before? It's a bit hard to assess how it's going without knowing that rather crucial piece of information so I'm surprised no one else has asked.
That's interesting @Prestel - of course previous learning experience has an impact alongside other factors but I wasn't aware it was so crucial - do you have a link? My understanding was that each potential relationship was unique - which is why some cats get along but others don't. My understanding was that It's not about any one factor per se, and actually things like the speed of interaction and provision of resources has a bigger impact.

The CP behaviour guide says
Although a cat might have lived with another cat in the past, this does not mean that they will tolerate a new cat immediately – each relationship is specific to the individuals and ensuring a gradual introductory period is critical.

https://www.cats.org.uk/media/1725/cpbehaviourguide-web.pdf