Resident cat showing aggression to a new kitten..

[miccoops]

Hi All,

Hoping for some advice/reassurance. We have an adult male cat (Leo age 6) and 1.5 weeks ago we brought home a new kitten (Pepper 8 weeks). I've taken intros slow, kitten has her own room, did scent swapping etc. I'm doing short play/treat based meetings between them and they eat meals in the same room.

To begin with Leo was hissing A LOT and growling.. he would growl and hiss when entering Peppers room even if she wasn't in there and wouldn't rub up or come near me if I had petted her. He wouldn't come in the living room after she had been in there (even though she was put in her room) This as now stopped, he can be in the same room and I can distract him for a little while with playing and giving treats, or if he is eating.. BUT when he see's Pepper at some point he will march over and hiss right in her face, and is now swatting at her.. he doesn't hurt her and then just turns and runs off.. she's very well natured and just stays still until he stop, never fights back or anything.. and then once he has gone she gets back to playing!

Does it sound like things are going in the right direction? The hissing and growling is definitely better but the swatting/bopping at her isn't great :-(

I've brought 2 feliway friends plugins and some calming drops for Leo.

Thanks!
Michelle

Veterinari

It's a pretty important piece of information in order to assess the situation, I think. If a cat has lived with other cats before then you at least know it can live with some cats in some situations. A 6 year old cat that hasn't lived with other cats before is a different proposition, imo. It's not just the specific cat that's new but the whole experience of sharing with another cat. I was just looking for more information to try to help the OP with her problem and was surprised no one else seemed interested in the background.

@Prestel thanks for your message. We got Leo via rspca who advised he could live with other cats at time of adoption. He has learnt to live with a Tom cat two doors down and they can be found sitting together at times in the summer. I think he’s doing well considering we’re 10 days in.. he seems his usual chirpy self, eating well and currently cuddled on my lap. His relationship with Pepper is slowly improving I think although this is the first time I’ve done this! He had a happy play time this evening with pepper in the room and no aggression.. he ended it on his terms. I actually think her presence is bringing out his playful side.. it’s just the times when he goes over to sniff her.. seems to be end in him swatting at her.. I’m now avoiding it and when he goes to her if he hisses I immediately move her to her safe area. I’m thinking to take it more slowly. They seem fine eating together

Ok thanks - I guess I'm not sure how important it actually is as my experience (and the research) suggests that it's the interpersonal relationship between individual cats that matters, not so much the general experience of sharing per se. But that's why threads like this are useful - everyone brings something different to the table. I wouldn't personally dismiss everyone else as being disinterested in the background, just because they don't place the same value on one detail that you do.

@fucknuckle

i rescued a 5 month old boy and brought him home to a house with 3 other cats. really big house, plenty of space. he’d been abused during his socialisation window and he didn’t really know how to Cat.

we kept him separate for 2 weeks, did scent-swapping, closed-door intros. all went swimmingly. within 2 months he was fully integrated. he spent a lot of time up on top of a wardrobe, but there was no fighting, lots of nose-boops and interaction when the others came in at the end of the day.

and then i split up with my ex, and brought my rescue boy (then 2) with me.

he’s a different cat. he went from completely silent to chatty and bossy, became a very much next-to-me cat and then progressed to lap cat. i thought that he was happy with the other cats. absence of fighting does not equal happiness. he is so happy now, and i feel bad for making the assumption that he had integrated into the old household when clearly he was permanently nervous.

he’ll be 4 in feb and i am just so happy that i’ve made him happy.

some cats just don’t get along, you can’t make it happen. sometimes tolerance is all you’ll get, but that doesn’t mean you have happy kitties.

maybe slow down on the interactions and go back to sniffing through a mostly-closed door. don’t leave the kitten out in a big enough space for the older cat to be able to get to him and start with the swatting and the hissing. you need to be able to completely control each and every interaction at this point, it’s not a watch-and-wait kind of a deal.

i wish you all the best. just, go back to basics and ease right back on focussing on how long they can interact without aggression. there shouldn’t be any aggression. slow and steady wins the race.

or, as other posters have suggested, this situation just isn’t doable. you haven’t failed, you just can’t predict how cats will react to a newcomer.

Thank you for your message. I’m going to slow things a little. So far Leo is still my loving, chatty lap cat.. he really is my furr baby currently cuddled on my lap. I think he is doing well with pepper but maybe I’m keen to get them integrated too quickly so going to slow it down., thanks for the message.

So ... I ask myself should I post? But here goes. I’ve got 4 feral visiting - all happy to eat from the same huge bowl.
I have 5 indoor cats - two 13 year old brother and sister and 3 x 7 month old kittens. We live on a boat. All get on fine. Outside cats have ‘sorted’ their own hierarchy.
Indoor cats - we did the swapping of scents to no avail, so we did what we always have done - introduced them to each other and stood guard ready to sort out any problems. After a few hisses and grumpiness, they settled down within a week. After a month they had worked out a hierarchy and there own spots.
I suspect they have actually decided to unite as one army and will probably try to take over the boat. But it works. No fights/hisses etc. My one concession was to use a spot on calming cream from pets at home on my old lady - but the jury is out on whether it did anything.
My point is it can work. But sometimes it needs to happen on its own and my take awhile longer. You are in the early days.
Good luck and carry on and keep calm.

Hi OP

Please don't be put off by some of the comments on here. We have three unrelated cats aged 5, 4 and six months and they all get along fantastically.

They groom each other, share food, water and litter trays, play together and sleep together. We never did slow introductions, just brought the new animal in and let them get on with it! I know that's very frowned upon here but we also did it when we introduced the dog and it as absolutely fine.

No anxieties, no fighting, no peeing outside of litter trays or hiding under beds and "just dashing out for food." In fact, the kitten has brought the 5yo rescue out of his shell and it's lovely to see them play and groom each other!

Please don't give up. It's early days and it's entirely possible they'll get on just fine!

miccoops
It sounds like a bit of a mixed bag but not without some encouraging signs. His being ok around other cats previously is hopefully a good sign he'll be ok around this one once he's gotten over having his whole world turned upside down.
Slowing it down a bit does sound like a good idea, given the hissing and swiping, not least to allow your new kitten a bit more space to settle in.
One thing I wonder about is them feeding together. Although they appear fine, it's often recommended to feed cats apart. They may feel more secure if fed in separate rooms initially, if possible. It's just a thought.
It does appear to be a challenging introduction but I'm sure you'll soon learn what helps and what doesn't.

@Prestel thanks for the message. I’ve decided to take a step back so for the next few days I’m going to keep them apart and just do scent swapping and territory exploring without seeing each other. My only question is re meals.. they both eat well with zero aggression together and I had read that it’s a positive association and good for them., I put Leo’s down first and then pepper. I wondered whether I should keep them apart all day apart from perhaps one meal? Then stop the play time intros for a few days and ensure all is going ok with the one meal.. what do you think?

@Bargebill19 @vanillandhoney thank you for posting and sharing - gives me hope!

For the food thing, you could feed them together but in different rooms perhaps? Jackson Galaxy used to do it on his behavioural show - so put a clear screen or baby gate in between the cats and feed them on either side of it.

I was just wondering if it's a bit early days for them to be eating together. Feeding them at the same time where they can see each other but apart, perhaps in adjoining rooms, for instance, would help Leo get used to the idea of the kitten without directly impacting his usual routines. As you've observed, Leo is interested in the kitten, but is happier if he has control when they interact. Although they seem ok when eating, I'm just wondering if feeling stressed at mealtimes might be behind some of Leo's behaviours. You want a situation where Leo can go about much of his normal day without having to deal with the new arrival apart from when he's ready to do so.

It's a bit hard to work out how you get from where you are, with Pepper in a completely separate room, to where you want to get next, with them both with separate, defined eating spaces, but in view of each other, without knowing the layout of your house, where Pepper is atm and where you want them both fed in the long run. I would, however, keep all meals the same in line with what stage you're at, rather than doing one meal differently, because otherwise it means having Leo entering Pepper's base or Pepper entering Leo's base (ie. the rest of the house!) to do so.

So in terms of what to do now, I'd actually be inclined to do the opposite of what you said and feed meals separately for the next few days while continuing with the (short) play dates, to see if it helps. This means all interaction is voluntary for Leo as he can go elsewhere if he wants, which he can't really do when he's eating iyswim.

@Prestel Thanks for detailed reply. We have a reasonable amount of space so could feed them separately and were doing to begin with. Pepper has her base room which is a downstairs study and has her littertray, water, cat biscuits, bed and some toys etc. Leo eats in the utility area off the kitchen and has biscuits down in there. He won't use a littertray we had one down for about 1 year and he never used it so we removed in the end. I've been feeding their wet pouches together in the kitchen so I guess neutral territory? They are about 2 metres apart and both eat well and then Leo goes out, which is normal for him he always goes out after breakfast/dinner.
During the day Leo has pretty much the run of the house, he tends to be outside or asleep on a bed upstairs. Pepper alternates between her base room and then when Leo is out/sleeping she is in the lounge but with the doors closed so Leo can't accidentally walk in.
I've done playtime in the kitchen with all doors open so both cats can leave whenever they want and have access to their own areas. Leo manages a good 5-10 mins of play and treats and seems happy. Pepper watches on usually. Then after a while Leo will lock eyes with Pepper, walk over, sniff her, then usually follows a hiss and a bop/swat.. then he runs off. I am trying to remove Pepper at the point he hisses..
So since yesterday I have gone back to keeping them completely apart and am wondering about whether to feed dinner together?
Leo does seem his usual self, he is eating well, no spraying or anything. Purring away and basically acting pretty normal for him.
He doesn't seek her out, he will let me pet him after I have stroked Pepper and explores her base room when she isn't in there without hissing/growling which initially he would do.. so I feel there are some positive signs

@Veterinari I think your first post was a bit passive aggressive. "I assume you've optimised ... as per" x learned article. Totally unnecessary and not the way to offer advice or progress a viewpoint . The OP posted for genuine advice. Are you a vet, as your user name suggests?

I would feed them completely separately, so there is no competition. Then start the familiarisation routine again from day one, as far as you can. Offer both treats and lots of attention.

Is Leo's access to the outside in the kitchen or utility? I'm kind of getting an idea of a cat coming into his house to find the first room he enters is randomly full of kitten :) Which might be a bit disconcerting. It would be good if Leo can come further into the house before he is likely to meet Pepper. Perhaps make the living room the main meeting area? You could even feed the wet pouches in the living room with Pepper near or just in the study and Leo near or just in the kitchen, perhaps. I would definitely keep Pepper out of the kitchen and utility area completely for the time being if that's Leo's main way into the house. And then move her closer to the kitchen and your intended main eating area only once they're getting on a bit better.

@Prestel thank you for such considered advice, so helpful to talk it through. Leo's catflap is in utility room which is off the kitchen. He then usually makes his way upstairs to a bed. He mainly hangs out in the kitchen when waiting for dinner or if I am cooking as he knows he'll get treated! Pepper is in the study which is opposite the lounge and is usually in one of these two rooms. After kids go to bed I bring Leo down and he sits on my lap in the lounge, normally around 8:30/9pm.. we then put Pepper to bed in her room till morning so they don't meet. I have kept them entirely separate and thinking perhaps best to this for a day or two.. kind of like a reset. Then maybe a play/treat meet where Leo can come in the lounge but have access to leave when he is ready.. I'll lay off feeding them together for now too..

@Livelykittenmum

I would feed them completely separately, so there is no competition. Then start the familiarisation routine again from day one, as far as you can. Offer both treats and lots of attention.

Thank you @Livelykittenmum I am keeping them separate now and going to try again in a couple of days.. Thanks for your message

I would say it's still very early days - cats are creatures of habit and may take a long time (weeks or months, not days) to get used to any changes as it is.

It's also completely normal for two previously unfamiliar cats to work out their hierarchies and some hissing and swatting is part of that. What you describe doesn't sound majorly aggressive to me. There can only ever be one top cat in any pair/group of cats and they need to sort that out - most likely Leo will become top cat in this instance but it's not always based on age or who was there first.

I have 4 (two pairs of siblings) and they are usually always in the same room or this time of year all piled up on my bed together - even though there is plenty of space here if they wanted to stay apart! I actually had a solo cat for over 10 years before these guys and really think their lives are so, so more richer and happier for having other cats to live with! Of course there are some cats who are extremely territorial and wouldn't want to share a home with another - although if you look at feral colonies, they tend to group together so I'm never convinced cats are solitary.

In my experience as a cat charity volunteer, I think quite often when there are issues in a multi cat home it is at least partly down to the humans not providing enough resources. The 1 per cat + 1 rule applies to most things - litter trays, water bowls, cat towers/other high up lounging space etc. Also in the instances Leo is asserting his authority and hissing at Pepper, you can help him feel he is the boss by giving him attention and fuss (even when your instinct may be to comfort Pepper after she's been hissed at).

@viccat thank you for the reply. I have made sure there are 3-4 water bowls around the house. They both have separate cat biscuit bowls as are on different food and kept apart. We have lots of toys, bedding, blankets throughout the house. Leo has not used a littertray in over a year so we just have one in Peppers room.. Leo shows no interest in it.

I do think looking back I've rushed a bit so now slowing right down. Will keep them apart for a couple of days and then try to re-introduce either treat/play time or feeding in view of each other, although perhaps not next too each other

[quote Livelykittenmum]@Veterinari I think your first post was a bit passive aggressive. "I assume you've optimised ... as per" x learned article. Totally unnecessary and not the way to offer advice or progress a viewpoint . The OP posted for genuine advice. Are you a vet, as your user name suggests? [/quote]
The ISFM cat environmental needs guidelines are not 'learned' they're aimed at owners and very accessible - a lot of owners will provide for their cats to this level automatically. It's interesting that in another thread I got accused of being condescending when explaining something I see lots of people do, whereas here I'm being told I'm passive aggressive for assuming knowledge, when in my experience most of the litter tray folks are very knowledgeable.

🤷‍♀️ I guess there'll always be someone looking to interpret the provision of a helpful resource in a negative way.

@miccoops
I really would agree with your approach to take things slowly.

The other thing to think about is offering as much choice as possible - this reduces potential conflict.

By feeding together, Leo has to choose: food with kitten, or no food - that isn't a great choice for him, so feed separately and don't put him in a situation where you're forcing interaction by using a resource. That applies to food stations, litter trays, sleeping spots and other resources etc. It's why the environmental needs guidelines are useful.

The other thing to consider is routes of travel. For example if one cat chooses to sit in a doorway, can they effective 'hog' all of the resources by guarding that doorway from the other cat? If so you need to make sure your resources are spread about the house, and ideally use vertical space (shelves etc) to provide additional access routes so that one cat cannot guard an area against another cat.

Also remember that humans are a valuable resource so it's probably important that whoever Leo's favourite 'human' is spends less time with the kitten.

When they are in the same space use the articles I linked to in body language/aggression to monitor the interaction.

Cats are naturally solitary and so haven't evolved expressive faces in the way dogs, humans and other social animals have, which makes recognising feline aggression much trickier until it becomes overt

if you look at feral colonies, they tend to group together so I'm never convinced cats are solitary.

You're right cats are selectively social. Colonies are formed by related females along the matrilineal line. Males are generally solitary with the exception of juveniles and breeding opportunities.

@viccat thanks for your message. I’m taking all the advice and will stop feeding together. Our house has lots of doors which at the moment I’m using to keep them separate but once they are more comfortable will have open so that really limits any blocking behaviour. I’m mainly moving pepper between her base room and the living room with the doors closed. Leo had sniffed at the door when she’s been in her base room and I’ve given treats outside the door today. I’m planning on trying the living room door open when he’s in and peppers in here so it’s his choice to come in and he has access to his exit.. will try tomorrow and if he doesn’t want to come in I won’t push it..

I’m his person so whenever he’s around with it without pepper presence I’m showering him with love. It’s not hard as I totally adore him! Here’s some pics of the two monkeys!

They're gorgeous miccoops.
Leo looks pretty laid back, I'm sure he'll come around eventually. And as for little Pepper, she is absolutely adorable. I hope things settle down and you can get to enjoy her properly. Kittens grow up so fast.

@Prestel

They're gorgeous miccoops. Leo looks pretty laid back, I'm sure he'll come around eventually. And as for little Pepper, she is absolutely adorable. I hope things settle down and you can get to enjoy her properly. Kittens grow up so fast.

Thank you and thanks again for all your advice!