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Teaching to stop being a graduate-only profession - 18 year old teachers.

(698 Posts)
noblegiraffe Sat 30-Sep-17 08:15:59

There were rumblings about this a while ago when the apprenticeship levy was introduced, but it looks like Justine Greening is going to introduce an apprencticeship route into teaching.

schoolsweek.co.uk/greening-teaching-will-cease-to-be-only-for-university-graduates/

I'm very concerned that in secondary schools, specialist subject knowledge won't be a pre-requisite for going into the classroom, it will be seen as something that can be picked up across the years, shortchanging the classes who get the apprentice in the first few years of the training (how long is an apprenticeship?).

In primary school, the education of a class for a full year could fall to someone just out of school themselves.

This isn't just about training on-the-job, we already have that as a route into teaching. This is about deprioritising a certain level of education for teachers and devaluing the profession. It's saying you don't need to be well-educated to teach, because you could be teaching straight out of school. The 'learning how to teach' part of any teacher training programme is so intense, that acquiring degree-level subject knowledge will certainly not be a priority from the start.

The wage for apprentices means this is just another way for schools to get teachers on the cheap and hang the consequences for education.

And knowing how many parents already view young teachers, fresh out of uni and just finished their PGCE, how will they take to having their child being taught by someone who hasn't even been to university?

Hayesking Sat 30-Sep-17 08:17:34

I think it's a good idea. My dd would love to do this (wants to be a primary teacher) . Sorry!

Hayesking Sat 30-Sep-17 08:18:21

It's a degree equivalent apprenticeship hmm it won't be an easy route.

Darkblueskies Sat 30-Sep-17 08:18:45

How can it be a good idea? What makes you think your dd has the right education level and knowledge to be a teacher at 18?

Hayesking Sat 30-Sep-17 08:19:56

For her, this is as much about parity of esteem for vocational education as it is about teacher training. She wants a higher level of technical study to be available to learners in most careers, and teaching is no exception.

Good.

TractorTedTed Sat 30-Sep-17 08:20:21

Crazy idea.

Hayesking Sat 30-Sep-17 08:20:44

She has the right experience and knowledge to be an apprentice teacher, yes.

G1raffe Sat 30-Sep-17 08:21:07

What!?

PebblesFlintstone Sat 30-Sep-17 08:21:29

The younger and cheaper the better of course. I wonder why this government places so little value on education given the fuss that is made every time we slip down the international rankings.

G1raffe Sat 30-Sep-17 08:21:56

Gosh I really do despair sad Instead of sorting out why teachers are leaving on drives they're putting 18 year olds in the classroom!?

StiginaGrump Sat 30-Sep-17 08:22:32

Dont worry OP the jobs so bonkers now most will leave, breakdown or never start just like the qualified ones...

G1raffe Sat 30-Sep-17 08:22:34

It was bad enough letting unqualified cover supervisors/tas take classes. This is crazy.

G1raffe Sat 30-Sep-17 08:23:05

My kids still have a long way to go through education...

PebblesFlintstone Sat 30-Sep-17 08:23:57

Also, if the apprentices decide after a few years teaching is not for them, I don't imagine there will be many other doors open to them with only a teaching apprenticeship behind them.

G1raffe Sat 30-Sep-17 08:24:17

Will there be apprentice doctors next - don't worry that the 18 year old knows nothing about being a doctor...

noblegiraffe Sat 30-Sep-17 08:24:32

It doesn't matter that it's a degree level apprenticeship, that means that they will have a qualification equivalent to a degree at the end of their training, BUT they will have been teaching from the start of their training, when they will only need to have A-levels or equivalent.

PaintingByNumbers Sat 30-Sep-17 08:24:47

Its fine as long as you dont plan on using the public education system and value a low education economy

Otherwise its shit

Good for teachers though. 18 year olds are resilient and will walk away at 22 without having destroyed their health

Hayesking Sat 30-Sep-17 08:24:51

I don't imagine there will be many other doors open to them with only a teaching apprenticeship behind them

You could say this about any apprenticeship.

Darkblueskies Sat 30-Sep-17 08:30:41

I certainly wouldn't want an 18 year old with no degree in the classroom teaching my child. I can't imagine how that would work at all!

Hayesking Sat 30-Sep-17 08:30:54

I'm not 100% sure a degree is absolutely necessary to teach at primary level. I'm aware I'll get massacred for suggesting it. I think it's essential for A level and probably gcse as well. If you have good A levels and work experience then there is no reason why you couldn't be an excellent primary teacher.

loobybear Sat 30-Sep-17 08:32:06

Anyone who thinks this is a good idea clearly does not understand teaching or the knowledge and understanding that is required to teach effectively. This is not just about knowing your subject well, it's about understanding the fundamental stages of development that children go through whilst learning, and how we structure our teaching in order to facilitate that. We need really knowledgeable mentors in schools and universities to do that, for years we have been losing that with fast-track graduate schemes. We have schools being led by business managers instead of educators who understand children's development.
It is ridiculously sad for children and the knowledgeable and experienced teachers who are now leaving the profession in droves.

Hayesking Sat 30-Sep-17 08:33:26

Anyone who thinks this is a good idea clearly does not understand teaching or the knowledge and understanding that is required to teach effectively. This is not just about knowing your subject well, it's about understanding the fundamental stages of development that children go through whilst learning, and how we structure our teaching in order to facilitate that.

Sorry to disappoint you but I have a PGCE and I still think it's a good idea!

Moussemoose Sat 30-Sep-17 08:34:20

Hayesking

The difference between teaching and other progressions is that the job you do on day 1 is essentially the same as the job you do on day 1001.

So an apprentice lawyer can be given easy cases and simple tasks. An apprentice teacher has a class the same way a teacher of 30 years has a class.

With other professions you can check the work before the work is given to the public - pharmacy for example. With teaching you can only observe the car crash while the damage is done to children's one chance at education.

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross Sat 30-Sep-17 08:34:52

I look forward with interest to the introduction of a similar scheme for doctors. Medical school is so time-consuming and expensive, after all.

And given the generally positive response to teaching apprentices on this thread, I'm sure everyone would be equally positive about an eighteen year old GP/A&E doctor. After all, it would be a degree equivalent apprenticeship.

Helspopje Sat 30-Sep-17 08:36:51

Re comment up thread

There are already apprentice drs
They are called physicians assistants
Cheap as chips and siphoning away the simpler and routine work
Begs the question as to how 'real' drs are supposed to get good enough at complex stuff if they can't build their training on the routine first.

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