Dedication vs Christening

[PurpleLostPrincess]

Hello all, I've been a regular mn'er for about a year now but have never posted in this area (only just found it!).

Its a bit of a long story so I'll keep it short but I'm a born again christian whereas DH is what I call a 'not yet christian' as he is still yet to take the plunge as such but God has done some amazing things in his life and he will openly admit that.

We had our first baby together early September and we've had a rough road - she has had 2 operations so far including heart surgery and has 2 more to come. My church family have all been very supportive and have been praying loads for us all.

Anyway, this is my second marriage and my xh was very anti-church. He wanted a christening and I wanted a dedication for DS and DD1 so we decided not to do anything at all so there was no argument. (of course, we don't need a ceremony to dedicate our children and both of them were prayed for and dedicated anyway by my parents, just not publicly!). DH (now) is aware of this and conversations early on indicated that this would be the case with DD2. However, I asked a few weeks ago if he would mind me having her 'officially' dedicated and he said he would think about it.

Well, yesterday, one of our friends asked him if she could be a godparent if we have her christened. I asked if he had explained that we might not have her christened and he now feels he would like her to be christened. I really don't want to get into a tug of war over this as it would be petty and childish. However, I have a problem with the ritual nature of a christening and the reasonings behind it (no offence to anybody else, its just my opinion) and feel that if we have her christened, we should also have her dedicated 'officially'.

I might add that I prayed over her when she was 2 days old and dedicated her myself, not knowing that she was actually very ill and was rushed to hospital the very next day - isn't God amazing!

I've not explained this very well at all so I hope you're able to read between the lines! I'd just value any advice on how to handle this one maturely and how to do what is best for all, especially DD2. Also, does anybody know more about the role of 'godparents' when its a dedication and whether it makes a difference if they are christians or not?

Thanks in advance,

PLP xxx

[Astrophe]

Personally, I think you need to think carefully about what each means (dedication vs baptism), and what they don't mean. Neither mean that your child will be saved, or that she will be looked on any differently by God. You have already dedicated her in prayer yourself, and as a child of a Christian mother, your DD is saved by your faith until she is older anyway. So whatever you do makes no difference to her status before God.

So, regarding Godparents being Christians - I would say its just as important to have Christian Godparents whichever form or service you choose. The role of the Godparents (imo) is to pray for and be available to support and mentor the child throughout their life. I don't think this role is spelled out in either service very well though, so its a matter for you to decide really. I see that this may be hard if your DH is not Christian and may want to choose unsaved friends as Godparents. As I said earlier though, whilst it would be great to have Christian Godparents, God isn't going to look upon your DD based on who her Godparents are!

In terms of how to handle this with your DH: Have you explained to him what your feelings on Baptism are? Lots of our non-C friends seem to think Dedication is a soft option - Not the 'real' thing - maybe he thinks the same? Is it worth explaining to him the reasons you prefer dedication, and the differences? (Probably you have already done this - sorry!)
If your DH feels strongly about it, I would probably go with the Baptism, rather than do nothing, simply because it will get him into church, and perhaps get him to think some more about what he is doing and why. Also I think its is valuable to make a public declaration of your intentions for your child - valuable, but not vital.

For the record, we have had both the DC Dedicated, but DH is a Christian so its been a bit more straightforward for me.

Can you explain your thoughts about having a dedication and then a Baptism? Why would you do that? I have seen Confirmation (of Adults) services where the adults have had to be quickly Baptised before they could be confirmed, because that was what the church traditions required. It was completely missing the point imo.

Sorry for the essay! I hope that helps a little.

[roisin]

You can have 'godparents' for a dedication, and you can have as much pomp and ceremony as you wish (or not). I guess the difference is the theology behind what you believe is happening.

Personally I don't think I could take part in a trad CofE christening ceremony for my children, because I don't believe in the theology expressed by the wording of the ceremony. I don't think that's childish or petty, it's actually very serious.

We had very low key dedications for our boys - no pomp and ceremony, no special guests, no gifts: just part of a regular service. But in our church now some people do have huge dedication services with loads of guests and all the 'trappings' of a christening, which is fine if that's what you want.

Have you chatted to your vicar/minister/pastor about this? He/she might be able to make some helpful suggestions.

[AMerryScot]

In the CofE, you can have a Baptism or Thanksgiving for the child. The Thanksgiving gets families from each end of the spiritual spectrum - those who adamantly believe in credo-baptism, and those who are not grounded enough in their own faith to be able to truthfully make the promises.

Most parents who bring their child for Thanksgiving also have adult supporters.

[Roseylea]

It depends very much on the type of church you belong to, IMO.

Dedicating / christening a child isn't just about praying for her, it's also about "welcoming her into the family of God" and allowing the congregation to offer their prayers and promise their support as your dd grows up. So it's not just about you and your immediate family, it's about the church being a big family and dedictaion / christening is a focus for that. (This is how I understand it, anyway).

And of course there is somehting very powerful about a church family standing together and saying "We will love this child as one of our own; we will teach her, love her and do all we can to introduce her to God in a way that will last for life." It's also a great reason (I was going ot say excuse!) for a big church lunch, and that's important too - families that eat together stay together and and all that!

So, talk to your church leader. See what he / she says, and how your church understands dedication / christening. People of different traditions will have different viewpoints, so see where you feel most comfortable.

Also, bear in mind that many churches that dediacte babies do recognise the role of godpareants, so just because you choose dedication doesn't mean that you can't have godparents.

HTH!

[PurpleLostPrincess]

Thank you for such a quick reply!

Firstly, I totally agree that neither will 'save' DD2 - I can only pray that she learns about Jesus as her friend as she grows up and hopefully chooses to be baptized when she is old enough to know what it means and she wants to do. I see it as my responsibility to at least set an example and be open and honest about my relationship with God.

I have explained to DH that imo a dedication is an opportunity to give her back to God and declare my intentions to bring her up in His way (I'd love to say 'our intentions' but thats hard with him not being a Chrstian yet!). The issue I have with a christening is that ime it is often seen as a way of 'saving' a child and isn't very personal to that child. I think a dedication more of an opportunity for prophecy and words to be given over the child.

When we had the conversation, DH said he'd like her to be christened because most of the rest of his family have been - not sure if that is a good enough reason imo.

Also, on a more practical note, I wouldn't have a clue about what local churches would be happy to do a christening - he says his family would be 'church of england'. Surely they would prefer to know us before agreeing to do such a ceremony or do you just ring up and book it!? (again, seems a bit impersonal to me). Any opportunity for DH to have contact with any church is fantastic but I worry that the emphasis won't be as much on a personal relationship with Jesus. Sorry to keep using the word 'ritualistic' but thats just my experience.

As far as godparents go, I agree that it makes no difference in the eyes of God but it would be hard for them to fulfill any sort of praying etc if they aren't christians, no matter how supportive they are. (they are lovely by the way and adore DD2 as well as our other DC's). However, I'd be really chuffed if they came along to our church as it could provide an opportunity for them to meet real christians - I'm the only one they know.

I've babbled again haven't I!?

[PurpleLostPrincess]

Oh my goodness, didn't realise there were lots of other posts - I'll read them now lol!

[Astrophe]

wouldn't you have the service at your own church?

[PurpleLostPrincess]

Totally agree Roseylea - I have grown up with the church being my family.

[PurpleLostPrincess]

Astrophe - If it was a dedication then yes but I'm quite sure they don't really do 'christenings' at our church...

[PurpleLostPrincess]

roisin, sorry I didn't explain that one very well - I just don't want to get into a childish arguament about this and dig my heels in just so I can get my way as that would be petty. You're right in that this is a very serious thing.

[PurpleLostPrincess]

I completely agree in that I don't want any pomp and ceremony - I can't cope with all that! If we were to have a dedication, it would be a normal Sunday morning (no offence to anybody who likes it, its just my opinion). It would however be a bonus to have DH or any of DH's family members there.

[AMerryScot]

Your local CofE church will do a Baptism or Thanksgiving for you.

They will probably have a small course for several families, where you can discuss Baptism/Thanksgiving and other areas where the church can support you as a family.

[PurpleLostPrincess]

Thanks AMerryScot, thats useful and lovely to know.

I guess my reluctance lies in the fact that we already has a church supporting us as a family or even a family supporting us as a church. Surely it wouldn't be right to 'use' another church just for the sake of a ceremony, knowing full well that we wouldn't have any contact with them afterwards and while DD2 is growing up - therefore defeating the object completely!?

[PurpleLostPrincess]

Having read this, I just wanted to make it clear that I'm not expecting anybody to make this decision for me. I just need to 'think aloud' and I really value other people's opinions and experiences and I'm grateful for them - they help to stimulate my thoughts. I realise that ultimately, I need to pray about this and as you've rightly suggested, talk with our church leader about it.

I've had pregnancy brain for a long time, now I've got baby brain lol!

[AMerryScot]

What rites does your church have for welcoming a new child into the church family?

[PurpleLostPrincess]

I take it a 'rite' is different from a 'right'?

[roisin]

I would view it as very very odd if you took your child to another church to be christened, for all the reasons mentioned above by others.

I think many CofE vicars would raise their eyebrows at this one too, and it might not e very easy to find someone to do the christening.

[PurpleLostPrincess]

So sorry for being thick - I've looked it up and I know what you mean now!

As far as I know, my church just does dedications, I've never known of them doing a christening. Roseylea has best described my understanding of it really (thankyou!). I worry that 'using' another church would actually be disrespectful of us.

Thing is, I've grown up in the church and went to the church school and it really is my family. I went astray in my teens (long story) but God really became real for me when I was about 21 (another long story!). I believe strongly in Him being my Father and in the Spirit leading prayer, rather than reading out set prayers. I really struggle with what I keep referring to the 'ritual' side of more formal churches as I can't see where the heart comes into it. (I wish I could find a better word in my head!). Don't get me wrong, I know lots of lovely people who are christians and go to CofE churches and I don't doubt their beliefs/experiences - its not for me to judge their salvation, thats the Lords job. However, I still feel what I feel - am I being too judgmental? When it comes to my own daughter, surely my feelings are relevant?

Again, I'm just thinking aloud here and I don't want to offend anybody...

[PurpleLostPrincess]

(we would be the ones disrespecting the church, not them disrespecting us - sorry, I'm not doing very well here!).

[MaryBS]

Hi PLP, I understand your concerns about ritual led services... as someone who LOVES ritual! Personally, I've become VERY conscious of the Holy Spirit in my life, and have felt spirit-led on many occasions. Often, its when I'm WRITING the prayers that will be read out in church! Personally, I believe the spirit can be with you just as much when you are reciting words of worship, as when you feel inspired to speak spontaneously. The holy spirit (to me) works where people feel comfortable. I can "do spontaneous" too, and have done many times when praying aloud.

I just want to share this one thing with you - and it still makes me cry when I read it. Recently my son was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome (AS). It appears I have it too. This is a quote from an article called "Asperger's in the parish":

"Yet when people with AS are accepted, nurtured, and allowed to use the gifts that often accompany their difficulties, they can be happy, productive, and valuable members of a community. Through the love of God in the people of the parish they attend, in the regular rhythm of the liturgy, of feasts and fasts, and in the reassuring concreteness of rites and sacraments, they can find a constant center for their lives."

It makes me cry because I can feel the spirit working in my life, even though I like things written down (a common trait with AS). I find some of the liturgy SO beautiful and SO uplifting, my heart could burst sometimes...

I could go on about this for ages, but I'm NOT offended by what you put, just I wanted
you to know that I feel God in my life too!

As for the dedication vs baptism, I think listen to God, what He has to say, and allow him to direct your heart to what's best. To me, the church as family is very important and that has to be a major consideration. But to me, baptism is important too... I could tell you a story about that, about how God sent me a sign, but it would make my post even longer...

Love and God bless

Mary

[CarGirl]

I think you need to pray hard, speak to some elders/leaders in your own church and then make some sort of decision. Does your dh understand the difference between the two? Does he think godparent=guardian, many people seem to.

I've not had my children dedicated but my best friend who is a christian regards herself as their sort of godparent anyway she knows she doesn't need the title to pray for my children and be there for them (although living hundreds of miles away).

Trust in God to lead you though this and have some sort of service that you are both happy with at some point.

Sorry not much help really!

[CarGirl]

btw I only "believe" in infant dedication and believers baptism so really understand what a big deal it is to you and I can't imagine having my children dedicated/baptised/christened at another church it would just seem a bit pointless.

[PurpleLostPrincess]

Thank you for your post MaryBS - you have described just the sort of situation of where it is right and appropriate to have written prayers (imo). You have obviously been blessed with a gift from God and its only right that you should use it. I guess I'm referring to the prayers that have been used for hundreds of years, thinking about it, I'm wondering if I'm thinking more of the catholic church than anything. (no offence to catholics either!). My grandma used to live with us and she was a catholic - she used to read prayers every day from a little book and seemed to think that would have some bearing on whether she went to heaven or not. Again, there may be lots of people who do this but in her case it was clearly not something from the heart.

I guess what I'm saying is that I know too many people who think that going to church on a sunday morning and taking part makes them better people and means they will go to church. You're clearly not one of those sort of people and I hope I havn't offended you. I also don't want to offend those people either as its not my place to judge anybody.

I'm afraid I don't know anything about AS but it sounds like God has been working in your life - isn't he amazing! I feel awful about the way in which I have dissed the structure of some churches so I apologise. As the bible says, there is a time and a place for everything and I'd hate to be all judgemental when you're right about the beauty of some writing. That's what the psalms are after all!

I fear I have got myself tied up in knots over this and not explained myself very well at all - please bear with me! I've had a rough few months and my head is all over the place! DD2 was rushed to hospital at 3 days old for a colostomy and then had to have heart surgery (again in a rush) a couple of weeks ago. She has got another operation in 2 and a half weeks time then one more after that. If I'm honest, I'm struggling to cope with it all and I guess this 'issue' with DH was just too much for me to think out on my own. I'm seriously thinking of getting a few of my church friends to come round and pray for me/my family as I've been a bit distant lately.

[paulaplumpbottom]

I had your problem. I wasn't interested in having my DD christened because I believe that baptism is a descion that she should make herself, not one to be made for her. My husband is not religious but his mother, who is not religious, wanted something to invite her friends to and wanted to buy a new hat. My husband and I came to a comprimise. We had a dinner at a lovely venue with friends and family in honor of our daughter. You could do this and maybe invite your pastor along to do a quick prayer or dedication

[PurpleLostPrincess]

Thank you cargirl, you have helped even if you don't know it!